MorganB

------I still maintain you complain BECAUSE Starbucks is an American company. My guess the reason Starbucks is so wildly popular with the French (yes, it is) is because it is so much better than the hundreds of similar places they've had for a number of years now------

Yes your right. Starbucks is superiour in so many ways to anything in France. Its a Christmas miracle. The French are lining up for miles to drink their coffee. How have the French lived without it for so many years? Thank you for your wisdom and well balanced statements.

Now I'm bowing out because this thread has been taken over by people who want to argue France vs USA which has nothing to do with why I posted this in the first place.

laclaire

I think that Starbucks actually serves a great purpose in the US. You can get strong coffee there (just know how to order it). Only once have I been denied a free large ice water, and I ask for that a lot, many times without ordering anything. They have clean bathrooms that are open to the public even if you don't order anything. Just this evening I was riding my bike and my chain came off. I entered a local ice cream place and they would only give me 1 paper napkin for the greasy job. At Starbucks, they gave me a ton, then I used their bathroom to clean up before getting my free Venti ice water and hitting the road.

I think that Starbucks in Spain is ridiculous for coffee, as Spanish coffee is good and cheap, but my friends there don't consider it as such. Some actually say 'helado' and 'batido' in reference to the frapuccinos, and don't get coffee because it is so expensive. However, there are precious few places that offer wireless internet in Spain, so Starbucks wins on that. Also, they do have the cleanest bathrooms in the area (I am thinking about Pelai street).

It is frustrating that all the hotspots I have always loved: Harvard Square, Greenwich Village, Plaza Catalunya, the shopping center down the street from my high school, etc. . . all now house the same 3 companies, but I think we can all still find places we love in spite of that. Besides, though we are reluctant to change, sometimes it does us a world of good.

Neopolitan

"Yes your(sic) right. Starbucks is superiour in so many ways to anything in France. Its (sic) a Christmas miracle. The French are lining up for miles to drink their coffee. How have the French lived without it for so many years? Thank you for your wisdom and well balanced statements."

It is comments like this, supposedly refuting a statement, but having nothing to do with that statement that makes posting on Fodors so difficult some times.

It is unfortunate that this poster doesn't recognize the difference between the long time "coffee culture" of France
represented by the very things he's talking about and that I would equally support. It is sad this poster is unable to read or to interpret my comments that were clearly about the "modern" fast coffee in a paper cup places. To try to compare Starbucks with a long time corner brasserie or cafe is ludicrous. I would NEVER even think to do something so stupid. It is unfortunate that this poster has somehow chosen to do so.

I realize this is much too complex for "some" people to understand, but what I was saying was that for the past few years hundreds of fast coffee and pre-made croissant places have been springing up all over Paris. At most of these their coffee is "swill", but people in a hurry grab it anyway. (No, the US does not corner the market on people in a hurry, grabbing something on their way to work). Starbucks is at least offering the same concept -- coffee to go -- but their product is infinitely better than at these other places. If you want to complain about something, complain about how all those other places have taken over the "coffee culture" of Paris. But don't complain about one chain (which happens to be American) doing it right while ignoring the ones (pretty much French) which "do it wrong".

Obviously the poster has never stood in line with the morning Parisians on their way to work cueing up at one of those "Croissant d'Or" places or similar to get their morning take-away coffee. If I were one of them, I too would rejoice at the Starbuck's option.

I am not here to argue US versus France. I AM here to say that I am still waiting for an explanation of why someone blasts one company for doing the exact thing that dozens of other companies have been doing for a number of years. Why have you chosen to blast Starbucks instead of LaCrossanterie, for example? The only differences I see between the two is that one does good coffee and one does bad coffee and one is French and one is American. Which of those has caused you to choose the company you are whining about? Would you have written your original post if the Dalloyau was replaced by the zillionth La Croissanterie in Paris?

robjame

I think generally the discussion is quite interesting and reasoned except the generalizations that are posted as fact. If "Most of the people at McDonald's in Paris are French, and mostly Parisian. The same is true for Starbucks. These places do well because Parisians flock to them", I would like to know what the poster uses for his source. Otherwise this is pure conjecture.
Admittedly a little out of date, but The "Business Traveler Online" states that in 2002 16 million foreigners [not French nationals] visited Paris. Two million people live in Paris. Were those people lined up at Starbucks from the 2 million Parisians? How would the poster know?
12 million people visited Disneyland Paris while 5.5 million visited the Eiffel Tower. Would we jump to a similar conclusion that Parisians prefer Disneyland?

Travelnut

Do you think that Starbucks opened at the Alesia end of avenue du General Leclerc (14th) primarily to serve tourists? I don't think so.

And to add further fuel to this fire, we ate at a KFC (!!!!) around les Halles a few years back. We could hear customers in line talking to each other in French, wearing business clothes, so it wasn't all tourists there, either.

Neopolitan

It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to walk through a MacDonalds or a Starbucks in Paris to figure out if those are locals or tourists. Of course, in some cases the people speaking French might be out of town French tourists, but clearly the crowds in the Starbucks I have seen in Paris -- even the incredibly busy one by Carrefour Odeon -- were primarily French business men and women on their way to work, or again after work. That isn't conjecture, but simple observation.

For the record, I haven't had a coffee at Starbucks in Paris. I much prefer sitting at a corner cafe enjoying my Grande Creme, and I'd prefer going where I can't go at home. But I have nosed around Starbucks just out of curiosity to see what the fuss was all about -- people were lining up outside. And yes, clearly it was mostly French.

SAnParis

As an American who does not drink coffee..I think we are all a bit dismayed to see some of our favorite places over-run w/chains. Particularly some of our favorite cities in Europe. It's bad enough I have to look at a McD's & Starbucks on every corner here (no I do not patronize either one). I think we were all hoping that this same globalization could be avoided in some of our most treasured, historical cities. Does it make me un-American, no. Does it make me loathe big corporations & developers, yes.

Rillifane

One wonders why someone would "loathe big corporations & developers" when their particular crime is to offer products to people that they want.

It can be disconcerting to see the progress of globalization but loathing seems something of an over reaction.

And if you think a Starbucks in Paris is odd, imagine my chagrin when I discovered that in my ancestral home of Hefei in central China, a place no tourist in his right mind would ever visit, there are currently seven Kentucky Fried Chicken stores!!

Neopolitan

SAnParis, yes I agree with you. My main point though is that why would someone complain only about the overrunning of a city by American chains and ignore the fact that they are already overrun with other chains. Why not loathe the big French corporations which started the practice instead of just focusing on the foreign corporations which are continuing it? Sure, complain about losing the "family -- small run establishment", but why single out one corporation in particular?

Travelnut

Is anyone bemoaning the appearance of Sephora and l'Occitane in the United States?

Traviata

Travelnut,

I am!! And when I see them in France, I walk right by...no need for their products, as they are both in the mall five minutes from my home....

AnthonyGA

One doesn't need a "source" to discover that the vast majority of customers of Starbucks, McDonald's, and KFC in Paris are French and (usually) Parisian: it's sufficient to just walk into one of these restaurants and look around. Besides, they could not stay in business with tourist traffic alone—there aren't enough tourists in Paris for that, and most of them never go near American fast-food restaurants.

French people go to these places for much the same reasons that Americans do. Fast food is just that: fast food. It's cheap, it's fast, there's no need to sit around and wait for service, the menu is always the same and completely predictable, etc. That's what made McDonald's successful in the U.S., and it's also what makes it successful in most other markets, including France.

If you really think that Parisians spend four hours a day eating five-course lunches with frog legs, truffles, and foie gras, you need to spend more time in the city. Paris is a big city, and people often have hardly any time to eat at all, so fast food is very attractive.

Starbucks depends on somewhat different factors, including a stronger dose of snob appeal, but some of the same consideration still apply.

SAnParis

As a personal preference I typically try to avoid chains but of course this is not always possible. As w/anything else (& yes I work for a huge corporation) there are good ones (Costco & Wendys come to mind) & not so good ones, (Wal-Mart, McD's etc.). If entering a historical type area, the big company should at the very least have the responsibility of blending in to that area. I'd prefer not to see any golden arches on the Eiffel Tower for example. Many don't, and go to extremes to make their product visible. There is a fine line between marketing your product & doing so tastefully. I don't reserve my 'loathing' for just American companies either. However, I live in America so they get the majority of my general disgust.

walkinaround

a few observations on this topic:

---immigration is changing europe infinitely more than a few or even many starbucks or mcds will. it seems strange to hear the american europhiles bemoaning the americanisation of europe when immigration from asia, eastern europe, north africa, etc. is changing the face of most european countries in deep and profound ways. to imply that a starbucks is ruining anything belies a serious misunderstanding of both america and europe. btw, i am pro-immigration. it is necessary and just a reality. but if you want to keep europe in a time-warp, preach against immigration, not starbucks.

---nobody expects america to stand still so why do americans expect europe to stand still. we do not set up our countries so that they will look like you want them to look in your photographs.

---Carrefour is all over asia. total is all over the UK. the french do it too. laura ashley is in paris, tesco in prague...monsoon in russia...the british do it too. american companies are just better at it at the moment.

--enjoy it now, your ability to export is seriously decreasing. you can build strong international brands, be proud of them. do you criticise walmart for importing everything from china? be proud of your successful exports like the starbucks brand...you seriously need them now.

---on the subject of l'Occitane in the US, i doubt that anyone sees this as an invasion of french culture ruining american culture.

---i am not a fan of starbucks but they have a winning concept. they maintain high quality shops that are generally in keeping with their surroundings. the fact that some americans are sick of them and do not want to have to see them when they go off to europe does not make them inherently bad for europe or europeans.

---i don't see the interest to argue over whether the customers of starbucks are tourists or not. paris is a major worldwide city with millions of residents and business travelers and tourists from all over the world. starbucks has built itself into a world-class brand. it would be strange if paris didn't have one (or many)! i was just in china on business and our host brought in starbucks coffee for us...saying "the best coffee for our european visitors!" starbucks is world standard...that's just reality. i don't particularly like it personally but at least i see the reality of the brand.

viaggio_sempre

Walkinaround-

Well said. Thank you.

VS :-"

clodius

"Author: walkinaround
Date: 03/10/2006, 05:36 pm
a few observations on this topic:

---immigration is changing europe infinitely more than a few or even many starbucks or mcds will. it seems strange to hear the american europhiles bemoaning the americanisation of europe when immigration from asia, eastern europe, north africa, etc. is changing the face of most european countries in deep and profound ways. to imply that a starbucks is ruining anything belies a serious misunderstanding of both america and europe."

This reminds of how the Canadian intellectual left is always screaming about the the Americanization of Canada. Meanwhile large parts of Toronto and Montreal are becoming indistinguishable from China and Pakistan. This, somehow, doesn't seem to bother them.

clodius

"Author: SAnParis
Date: 03/10/2006, 02:49 pm
As a personal preference I typically try to avoid chains but of course this is not always possible"

Some chains are good, some are bad. Categorical decisions like yours are downright stupid. People who make decisions based on ideology rather than reality are generally downright stupid.

Faux

"It is comments like this, supposedly refuting a statement, but having nothing to do with that statement that makes posting on Fodors so difficult some times."

Neopolitan, I hope differences of opinion are not the reason you have found posting on Fodors so difficult.

Neopolitan

Absolutely not. I love differences of opinion. But having someone compare two kinds of fast coffee take away shops and then to have someone else act like that was a comparison between between one fast coffee takeway and a traditional French coffee shop -- isn't a diffence of opinion. It's a an ability to read or comprehend.

There have been a number of intelligently expressed and supported opinions expressed on this very subject above that I applaud, even though I don't personally agree with them. But that has nothing to do with someone pretending I've said something I didn't say.

Faux

"It's a an ability to read or comprehend"

Yes, quite true. (missing a sic?)