Peter_S_Aus

Starbucks comes to Italy.
Are Italians coming to Starbucks?

nochblad

I think many responding to this posting and previous postings on the subject of Starbucks are suffering a misconception when comparing Starbucks with McDonalds. Of course both are huge American multinationals but essentially they serve a different market. McDonalds is well known for its extremely competitive pricing and is often favoured by the young (as mentioned a number of times above) because you can eat a meal for less than 5 Euros. Starbucks is certainly not considered competitive for the majority of Italians (and don't let me get involved in a discussion about the quality of their coffee!) and is aimed at a higher spending customer.

I wonder how many regular Starbucks customer regularly visit McDonalds and vice versa.

PalenQ

Coffee bad? Can't see why = they use same machines as Italians - and young Italians flock to McDonalds and like trendy things - not if for tourists Milan would not be the first place but rather a more affluent young crowd that is eager to have something different - and the coffees that may be most popular are flavored ones not offered in many Italian caffes - and those are anything but bitter.

WeisserTee

"the cakes are dry." The cakes are being provided by a popular Milan bakery. If they're dry, blame the Italian bakery, not SB.

nochblad

PalenQ - I did not state my opinion as to Starbucks coffee but since you raised it IMO it is vile. The flavoured coffees you mention may not be be bitter but how many calories are people consuming (as well as the quality of those calories)? Many Starbucks coffee concoctions should really come with a health warning!

PalenQ

so is Italian pizza probably - sweet coffees are they any worse than gelatos? I'm not necessarily a fan of Starbucks but not blind to why they appeal to Italian young folk either and the coffee is made the exact same way as Italian caffes do it.

nochblad

PalenQ - it's the coffee beans not the machines used! But as everyone in Italy knows, even with the same machine AND the same coffee beans some bars (using Illy coffee beans) make a better coffee than others). The same with prosciutto. With the same hams (Parma or San Daniele, for example) you know that certain places select which ham to select from their storage to start slicing as well as being more skilled in slicing it.

Starbucks can never compete with this , thank goodness.

StCirq

<< the coffee is made the exact same way as Italian caffes do it.>>

Really? I think that is patently untrue. At any rate, the Italians, no matter how they make their coffee, and there certainly isn't one single set of rules, manage not to burn their coffee the way Starbucks does.

PalenQ

You've been in the Milano Starbucks? Starbucks got where they are by burning beans? Sure. Starbucks IMO will compete very well - not with ordinary caffes but serving a new clientele who may come for reasons other than simple coffees - they said the same thing about McDonalds and now they flourish. Again Starbucks is not competing with ordinary Italian caffes but is a different experience - a place to linger and study or read or whatever has made starbucks popular all over Europe as well as U.S. and why they can't roast beans as well as any regular caffe - do regular caffes roast their own beans?

nochblad

PalenQ - what is it with you and Starbucks? It has been months if not years you have been going on about them. Are you in their pocket because your insistence would seem to indicate so.

PalenQ

It's just that folks always diss something like Starbucks or McDonalds in Europe with really stereotype criticisms of food snobs whilst locals really embrace them. That a Starbucks is opening in Milan is not sacrilege but a sign that the city is open to new ideas, etc. and yes Howard Schultz is my younger brother or maybe older brother?

StCirq

<<You've been in the Milano Starbucks? Starbucks got where they are by burning beans? Sure. Starbucks IMO will compete very well - not with ordinary caffes but serving a new clientele who may come for reasons other than simple coffees...>>>


Bla, bla, bla....the ONLY point I made was that your claim that Starbucks make its coffee the "exact same way" that Italian caffès make it is total rubbish.

PalenQ

You have info on that - that Starbucks doesn't use same machines and techniques as Italian caffes- for regular espresso? The idea that regular caffes make better coffee - that is hard to prove and probably a bunch of hot air and again the lure of a Starbucks type place for younger folk is not the regular coffee that Italians IME tend to gulp and run but a place to linger - much more than what type of coffee is made and again the flavored coffees that they offer. Said same thing about Paris and other places in Europe but folks here have said Starbucks in Paris are mobbed by French folk not just tourists.

StCirq

I have ZERO interest in how many locals flock to Starbucks, MacDonalds, or any other place like that or whether they do or will lure young French or Italians - ZERO. Neither do I have any interest in discussing subjective opinions on which coffee is "better."

If you bothered, you could easily google for info about how Starbucks makes its coffee and how the average Italian caffè makes its coffee, but you'd rather call it "hot air" than lift a finger to do any research of your own. All you want to do is stir the pot for the purpose of pretending you know oh so much about the habits of young people in countries you haven't set foot in in years..as usual. Why don't YOU look up the coffee-making formulas of Starbucks and Italian caffès? After all, YOU were the one who made the blanket statement. I've already done that. Back to you.

PalenQ

You missed the point - maybe Starbucks don't use the same machines and beans and roast them like ordinary caffes - no I don't know and should not have said - that said you certainly don't know how this Milan Starbucks makes it coffee - they may use exactly same process but again folks will not go there for regular espresso that typically IME they seem to gulp and run - so how they make their coffee no one knows - don't judge by American Starbucks. You don't know any more than I do yet you say they burn their beans, etc. We are both clueless in this regard and it is irrelevant to why young folk in any country may go there. Enough said.

walkinaround

I'm not a coffee snob. If you want to relax, do some work, meet a friend or colleague, or catch up on your mails, etc. Go to Starbucks, get a drink of your choice, and relax like millions of people all over the world do. Equally, I would go to Cafe Nerro, Costa, Notes, or a local place. Or maybe Wetherspoons with Lavazza coffee and unlimited free refills. I want a decent coffee (it doesn't have to be the world's best every time i just want to get on my laptop), a comfy chair available, and a decent atmosphere that's not overly crowded or too loud. They all have decent coffee. I don't really care how they make their coffee. I trust that they know what they are doing and I've never had a problem. I really dont' care to make people think that I have impeccable tastes in coffee and that I have a discerning coffee palate that could never be satiated with a chain that is on every corner.

It doesn't bother me that SB is in Italy now. Italy will survive. "Real" Italian coffee will survive. Italian coffee culture will survive. Give the Italians another choice, like most people in the world have.

PalenQ

Exactly - so well put.

walkinaround

Funny how people who fancy themselves as having "discerning tastes" were falling all over themselves in the 90s to say how you just "HAVE TO" try SB. "You haven't had coffee until you've tried SB". But back then it was exclusive - available only to those living in or visiting to the largest cities or, before that, to those who traveled to Seattle. So it was something special. You could tell people about it and boost your own cred if you were on the wave early. "Oh you haven't tried SB or heard of it...OMG...you HAVE TO". You'd go there for the first time and you'd love it because it was played up so much. You've heard about it for months and now you're finally in NYC and can try it yourself. Naturally, it's "special". You heard it was the ultimate coffee so that's what it was in your mind. Then you'd play it up because you look like you don't "get it" or don't have "discerning tastes" if you say "Meh...it's just coffee".

Now it's on every street corner and in every shopping mall and it's filled with Joe and Mary Middle Americas. So if you fancy yourself as having "discerning tastes", why would you waste your breath saying anything good about SB -- even if you go there like everyone else? That just makes you look like a lemming. Undiscerning. Like everyone else. At least you could give SB the credit for creating the market for "gourmet" coffee and for "fashionable" coffee shops in America. Whatever your coffee preferences, they raised the bar. Prior to SB, this market simply did not exist except as niche in fashionable parts of cities, around universities, etc. Before SB's proliferation to middle America, the term "good coffee" generally had a very different meaning. Nobody really thought much about coffee and the thought of going to a coffee shop to work or socialise was pretty foreign to most.

This cycle of trendiness plays out in many things. Crispy Creme is another example. They were once exclusive and everyone had to crow about how amazing they were to people who hadn't tried them or drone on about them within the exclusive club of people who were lucky enough to have tried them. "OMG aren't they amazing" as those who hadn't tried them looked on feeling left out of the club. For Americans, it's often things in europe that are "exclusive" because they are not accessible to everyone. You can't really go wrong if you say "OMG the coffee in Italy is AMAZING". The mystique of the Cuban cigar is probably the most classic example. Or from a few years ago, "you can't make a mojito without real Cuban rum. You just can't."

As you travel and experience more things in life, most of us mellow about things like this and are less caught up in the extremes. You've seen coffees, foods, beers, musicians, gadgets, jeans, shops, hobbies, etc come and go and you're less bothered with the hype early in the wave ("OMG you JUST HAVE TO try _____") and less strident and vocal in your hatred of anything mainstream ("OMG SB is HORRIBLE COFFEE. It's DISGUSTING. OMG I can't believe you think _____ is good"). I mean really...exaggerate much? Sounds like some growing up is needed among people who should be mature enough to realise how silly they sound.

nochblad

PalenQ - pizza is a meal so the comparison is not equivalent

thibaut

Bottom line of this thread seems to be that only US coffee is good enough.
And the world would be so much better if us Europeans would drop all pretence of saying our coffee is better or even made differently. We should eat T-bones (I read another stupid great comment from a US guy saying he never had as good a piece of meat in Europe as he has in the US), KFC chicken wings, McDo Hamburgers etc.
God Bless America.