Spain/Porugal itinerary--need help
 

Just starting to plan for a September 2023 trip of 28 days. Never been to either countries. Seniors who like to walk around towns and soak up the history/ambiance, see the sights, visit beaches, see a museum or two, not foodies and don't drink wine. After reading Rick Steve's books and talking to friends who have visited here is what I have so far below-- are there any MUST SEE places we can see along the way or any we have listed that aren't worthy of spending time there. I have heard some people talking about Evora and Combria on this site. Should I add those or can they be day trips from a home base?? Like taking the train but it seems they take longer and don't want to use up our precious days with long rides so maybe flying/rental car?? Flights seem reasonably priced for the time it would take on the train. Any thoughts to help fine tune our trip???
Fly into Barcelona--3 nights
Fly to Porto 3 nights
Rent a car and drive to Nazare (1 Night), Obidos (2 nights) and Lisbon (4 nights with day trip to Sintra, Cascais)
Fly to Sevilla (3 nights) get rental car and drive to Tarifa (1 night)
Gibraltar/Ronda 1 night
Nerja 1 night
Granada(return rental car) 3 nights
Train to Cordoba (2 nights)
Train to Madrid (4 nights) day trip to Toledo
Fly out of Madrid

I wouldn't use a plane if I could use a high quality train or even bus. Partially because of Climate Change and partially becuase it is just easier and more pleasant. Despite British, I would not bother to go to Gibralter, hardly up to the other sites you are considering.

Others love Ronda, I would prefer to visit say Cadiz or Jerez (but you don't drink so maybe not) but we are all different

Otherwise the basic visits look fine

Obidos is worth a visit, but can be done by using Nazaré as a base, from which you might also want to see Alcobaça, perhaps on the same day as Obidos.

https://flic.kr/p/2gxtMqM https://flic.kr/p/2gx9Cbs

It seems to be a very fast-paced trip even though you have 28 days. And I think you are short-changing some destinations, and you may feel frustrated when you are there and can't see or do everything you want to do. I think a more enjoyable trip would be to spend more time in fewer places so you have a chance to see important sites and also explore neighborhoods and enjoy the ambiance of a place. These are the changes I would make if it were my trip.

Firstly, 3 nights in Barcelona is not nearly enough time. You will have jetlag on your first day and will be limited to what you can see and most likely what you see will be a blur from fatigue. Barcelona is a large city with lots to see and do. I assume you chose Barcelona for a reason, and that reason could be the wonderful, memorable, and quirky Gaudi architecture, such as Casa Batllo, Casa Mila, La Sagrada Familia, Parc Guell, and others. You can have a tour of the gorgeous Palau de la Musica Catalania. There are several interesting Gothic cathedrals to visit, Citadel Park with its unique La Cascada. The list is endless. And wonderful wanderings through so many neighborhoods, such as Eixample, Barri Gotic, and Gracia, which is a family-friendly neighborhood where people live. So I would spend at least 5 nights in Barcelona.

I haven't been to Porto, Nazare, or Obidos so can't comment.

Four nights in Lisbon with 2 day trips is not enough, and again, you will feel rushed. Lisbon is a wonderful city and even though it is one of Europe's smaller capital cities, there is a lot to see and do in Lisbon. The Gulbenkian museum is amazing, and also has pretty grounds and a nice cafe where you can have lunch or a snack. We also liked the Coach Museum in Belem. There are other interesting museums that we didn't have time to visit but they are all small, so you don't need to spend hours and hours in one museum. Belem is interesting with the Jeronimos Monastery, Belem Tower, and Discoveries Monument. The day we visited the Castelo De S. Jorge and wandered around the Alfama district was one of our favorite days. There are also numerous miradauros in Lisbon where you get a drink and enjoy the gorgeous views. So I think you need 5 or 6 nights to see Lisbon properly and also visit Sintra and Cascais. Many people recommend spending a couple nights in Sintra, in fact.

I did not visit Tarifa, Gibraltar/Ronda and Nerja so can't comment.

I recommend at least 4 nights for Seville. Seville is another gorgeous city with many important historical and cultural sites, such as the Real Alcazar, Seville Cathedral, and Casa di Pilatos and others. Plaza de Espagna is spectacular, there are many lovely parks, visit the Triana neighborhood, see a flamenco show, take a carriage ride.

I like your allocations for Granada and Cordoba, although you could delete a night from Granada and put it somewhere else. We spent 2 nights in Granada which was fine, but it would have been nice to have 3 nights in Granada.

For Madrid, normally I would suggest spending 4 nights in Madrid (with no day trips) but since you don't seem to be huge museum fans, perhaps Madrid in 4 nights with a day trip to Toledo will work. We did spend one night in Toledo, which we really enjoyed. But a day trip is better than not seeing Toledo at all.

So a possible itinerary could be:
Barcelona - 5 nights
Lisbon - 6 nights OR Lisbon 4 nights with 2 nights in Sintra
Seville - 4 nights
Granada - 3 nights
Cordoba - 2 nights
Madrid - 4 nights
Toledo - 1 night or a day trip from Madrid

So my itinerary leaves you with 3 nights for you to allocate to your other places of interest.
Evora could be a day trip from Lisbon. But if you want to visit Evora and/or Coimbra, you would have to give up something else. I have not been to these places.

Nazare as a home base sounds better than a night there and a night at Obidos--thanks for your advice!

Thanks for your 2 cents!! Wasn't sold on Gibraltar so easy to give that one up

The ideas about climate change and not flying really go against the idea of a vacation form. flying around the world and worrying about such things. If you are worried then please stay at home and do not go far from your house.
Now on to the itinerary.
I do not like Nerja. Too many bars and restaurants catering for the British. Figures have suggested that as much as 33% of the population are British. Not that the British are bad just that this town is not the immersive cultural experience you could find. I would drop that too.

no, climate change has to be important in the little things as well as the big things, every action towards combating it is important

After some tweaking my trip it looks way different than when I started the planning--here it is below...is there someplace I have too many nights and could put the extra night somewhere else that would need more time??? Any other thoughts before I start reserving my rooms???? Also trying to figure out how to get from Lisbon to Seville--looks like NO trains, Flix bus is 7 hours and flying is 1 hour ...am I not looking in the right place?? Thanks

Barcelona 4 nights (Fly to Porto)
Porto 4 nights ( rent car and head south to see Coimbra, Batalha, Fatima and stay in Nazare
Nazare 1 night (leave here and drive towards Alcobaca and Obidos) arriving in Evora
Evora 3 nights (one day for Evora and one to drive to Estremoz, Monsaraz and Lake Alqueva)
Lisbon (return rental car) 6 nights ( day trips to Cascais, Sintra & Belem)
Seville 5 nights (day trip to Cordoba & Cadiz)-train to Granada
Granada 4 nights-- train to Madrid
Madrid 4 nights (day trip to Toledo)

bornintheusa
You must either take the 7-hour bus or a one-hour flight on White Air from Lisbon to Seville. Or take the Alfa Pendular train to Faro (Algarve), then a 3-hour Rede Expresso or Alsa bus ride to Seville.
There are no direct trains that connect Spain with Portugal any more, which seems absurd, but it's the case.

This web site by cubsur of the Portugal TA forum explains it all here-
http://www.algarvebus.info/001.htm.

I would take the one-hour flight from Lisbon to Seville. TAP Portugal Airlines flies this route.

I would take one night from Granada and stay overnight in Cordoba at least one night.

I've taken the TAP flight, which is actually operated by White Airlines. It's your best option.

I do certainly agree with Karen to take one night from Granada and use it to overnight in Córdoba.

Instead of Tarifa, Gibraltar, and of course Nerja, I would choose the splendid Malaga.

I agree with Revulgo.
Nerja has a very large expat community, both British and Nordic and just doesn't seem Spanish to me (although it has its many fans and has an undeniably pretty setting with its Balcón de Europa but lots of condo development surrounding it).
I would skip Tarifa and Gibraltar and choose wonderful Málaga, the city with 300+ days of sun and 30+ museums, and its inner core is mostly, pleasantly pedestrianized.

And a correction to my post above regarding Spain to Portugal rail service. There IS one, between Porto and Vigo, the Tren Celta.
2 daily trains, one morning train departing Porto's Campanhã station at 8:13, arriving at 11:35 and the afternoon train departing at 7:10, arriving at 10:34. The ride takes just under 2 hours, 30 min with intermediate stops at Viana do Castelo and Valença at the border. This train doesn’t go on to Santiago de Compostela. Forgot about that one.

In the OP's revised itinerary (Post #9), it looks like he did drop Nerja, Tarifa, and Gibraltar.

If he has the room somewhere, I agree about adding Malaga. We stayed 2 nights and loved it. There is so much to see and do there. It is splendid, as Revulgo says, and the inner core, as Maribel says, is mostly pedestrianized, and is just beautiful. And its location on the Mediterranean gives you a wonderful coastal ambiance.

Malaga sounds great but limited to time-- looking at my itinerary can I manage a Malaga trip somewhere in here?? Is there someplace I can lose a day or 2 below to fit it in??

Barcelona 4 nights (Fly to Porto)
Porto 4 nights ( rent car and head south to see Coimbra, Batalha, Fatima and stay in Nazare
Nazare 1 night (leave here and drive towards Alcobaca and Obidos) arriving in Evora
Evora 3 nights (one day for Evora and one to drive to Estremoz, Monsaraz and Lake Alqueva)
Lisbon (return rental car) 6 nights ( day trips to Cascais, Sintra & Belem)
Seville 5 nights (day trip to Cordoba & Cadiz)-train to Granada
Granada 3 nights-- train to Cordoba
Cordoba 2 nights
Madrid 4 nights (day trip to Toledo)

Coimbra needs more time, not a day shared with others. Try to stay overnight there.

"Porto 4 nights ( rent car and head south to see Coimbra, Batalha, Fatima and stay in Nazare"

This plan just isn't realistic. Coimbra needs at least an overnight, as Happy Trvlr notes.

I wouldn't try to squeeze in Málaga.

About the Tarjeta Dorada
You must purchase your Tarjeta Dorada once in Spain at an official Renfe office and show proof of age (passport or. driver's license).
It is for seniors 60+.

Once you have your Tarjeta Dorada in hand, you can purchase discounted tickets on line or via the Renfe app, inserting your Tarjeta Dorada number during the purchasing process.
See the discounts here-
https://www.renfe.com/es/en/viajar/p.../mayores-de-60

For figuring out the best routing, use renfe.com, choosing the one-way option.
https://www.renfe.com/es/en

I purchase all my Renfe train tickets at www.renfe.com since I'm a registered user and my husband as well. My cc on file also is authenticated by the Verified by Visa program, so my purchases go smoothly.
Some with US bank issued credit cards have had difficulty with the online purchase, so now Renfe accepts Pay Pal.

You can also use trainline, but trainline will charge you a slight fee, but many feel that its ease of use is worth it.

As much as I like Malaga, I don't think you have the time for it on this trip. I think your trip would be too rushed.