smart card - any US issuers?
Apr 11th, 2007, 06:25 PM
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smart card - any US issuers?
For the second european trip in a row, I ran into trouble with bancomats/vending machines in Europe that would only accept smart cards (with chips)
Particularly notable was the RER lobby at CDG where all the Americans were wandering around disconsolately trying all their cards in different machines.
This year was a bancomat at Malpensa - fortunately I was able to find another that would accept my Amex but it was stressful.
Are there any issuers of cards in the US which offer credit cards with the chips?
Particularly notable was the RER lobby at CDG where all the Americans were wandering around disconsolately trying all their cards in different machines.
This year was a bancomat at Malpensa - fortunately I was able to find another that would accept my Amex but it was stressful.
Are there any issuers of cards in the US which offer credit cards with the chips?
Apr 12th, 2007, 05:18 AM
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The trouble with 'chip & pin' machines in France is that their technology isn't (yet) quite compatible with the rest of the world that has introduced C&P in more recent years. British visitors, almost all of whom now have C&P cards, still have difficulty with certain automatic dispensers at train stations and fuel pumps - they only take French C&P cards. It isn't expected that France will complete upgrading all their terminals for a few more years yet. Non-French C&P cards now work in most shops and other situations with staff present (where non-chip cards can also be swiped and slip signed).
For US visitors with non-chip cards, you have to carry some Euro cash around to cope with situations whene they can't use their cards. When driving, make sure you fuel up whilst the station is manned.
For US visitors with non-chip cards, you have to carry some Euro cash around to cope with situations whene they can't use their cards. When driving, make sure you fuel up whilst the station is manned.
Apr 12th, 2007, 07:14 AM
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In Canada, we're moving toward adoption of chip and PIN technology. Visa and MasterCard have set 2010 as the target date for the completing the move to smart cards. And for debit transactions, Interac has announced that domestically issued magnetic-swipe cards won't be accepted in ATMs after 2012. There's going to be a market-trial in the Kitchen-Waterloo area this year for both debit and credit transactions.
As far as compatibility with other systems, the cards used here will meet the Europay MasterCard Visa (EMV) standard.
In the United States, for a number of reasons, there doesn't appear to be any concerted effort to make the switch, so Canadian cards will continue to have a magnetic strip.
As far as compatibility with other systems, the cards used here will meet the Europay MasterCard Visa (EMV) standard.
In the United States, for a number of reasons, there doesn't appear to be any concerted effort to make the switch, so Canadian cards will continue to have a magnetic strip.
Apr 12th, 2007, 12:50 PM
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The thing to do at gas stations, if you don't have a chip, is to wait until you see a friendly looking local pumping gas and offer to pay cash to be topped up.
Works frequently.
The "swipe" is being phased out I believe.
Works frequently.
The "swipe" is being phased out I believe.
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:00 AM
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We discussed this on another thread...
It is obvious the US banks have done studies and have come to the conclusion that the cost of converting to chip and pin cards is much greater than the money they are losing due to fraud...what with requiring every merchant to get a new pos terminal what with the cost of producing the cards and whatever. Too bad if it would stop some of the fraud associated with credit and debit cards.
BTW, while chip and pin does cut down a bit on fraud perpetrated at merchants, most of the fraud now occurs on internet transactions where the card is not present, where the purchase is done by entering the credit card number along with the silly security code on the back....chip and pin does nothing to prevent this as some British holiday makers discovered last April when after using a chip and pin terminal in a Shell gas satation, they suddenly started having purchases and cash advances pull money out of their account for transaction in far away places such as Thailand!
So chip and pin is hardly the panacea it is made out to be (not that it shouldn't be introduced in the USA, but don't hold your breath.)
It is obvious the US banks have done studies and have come to the conclusion that the cost of converting to chip and pin cards is much greater than the money they are losing due to fraud...what with requiring every merchant to get a new pos terminal what with the cost of producing the cards and whatever. Too bad if it would stop some of the fraud associated with credit and debit cards.
BTW, while chip and pin does cut down a bit on fraud perpetrated at merchants, most of the fraud now occurs on internet transactions where the card is not present, where the purchase is done by entering the credit card number along with the silly security code on the back....chip and pin does nothing to prevent this as some British holiday makers discovered last April when after using a chip and pin terminal in a Shell gas satation, they suddenly started having purchases and cash advances pull money out of their account for transaction in far away places such as Thailand!
So chip and pin is hardly the panacea it is made out to be (not that it shouldn't be introduced in the USA, but don't hold your breath.)
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:03 AM
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It amazes me that the U.S. has not adopted cards with chips, even though they've been around for decades elsewhere.
I suspect that it's cheaper to accept the (relatively low) level of direct credit-card fraud than it is to switch from a cheap magnetic stripe to a much more expensive chip.
However, France does have one of the lowest rates of card fraud in the world (for equivalent transaction volume) mainly because it uses cards with chips. Stealing the card accomplishes nothing, as you cannot use it for much of anything without the PIN (some small purchases, such as subway tickets, don't require it).
The reason for trouble with cards in France is that the French were among the first with chips and long had their own software on the chips. When the cards spread elsewhere, the software developed in other countries was more standardized, but different from the legacy French system. The French cards carry both types of software, but foreign cards carry only the foreign software, and sometimes there are bugs in interfacing with it in French terminals (which use the French system a lot more than other systems, for obvious reasons).
I suspect that it's cheaper to accept the (relatively low) level of direct credit-card fraud than it is to switch from a cheap magnetic stripe to a much more expensive chip.
However, France does have one of the lowest rates of card fraud in the world (for equivalent transaction volume) mainly because it uses cards with chips. Stealing the card accomplishes nothing, as you cannot use it for much of anything without the PIN (some small purchases, such as subway tickets, don't require it).
The reason for trouble with cards in France is that the French were among the first with chips and long had their own software on the chips. When the cards spread elsewhere, the software developed in other countries was more standardized, but different from the legacy French system. The French cards carry both types of software, but foreign cards carry only the foreign software, and sometimes there are bugs in interfacing with it in French terminals (which use the French system a lot more than other systems, for obvious reasons).
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:14 AM
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As noted Anthony, the vast majority of credit and debit card fraud today is done via the web....chip and pin does nothing to prevent this and this may be one of the reasons US banks have decided not to embrace the technology. Also I noted in your reply, you used the phrase chip and pin has made France a very low level place for credit card fraud in direct transactions and that's the point...the biggest rise in credit card fraud is via the internet.
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:35 AM
#14
But to get an answer to Miss Zeigfeld's question...if you are from US and you will be using credit cards for your trip to Europe, will you be able to use the regular US issued cards, as has been the usual?
I looked for the other thread that xyz mentioned, but couldn't locate it. Will someone please top it???
I ask these questions since we'll be traveling to Spain in 2008. Our last time to Europe was five years ago. Thanks.
I looked for the other thread that xyz mentioned, but couldn't locate it. Will someone please top it???
I ask these questions since we'll be traveling to Spain in 2008. Our last time to Europe was five years ago. Thanks.
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:36 AM
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Are you sure the problems at bancomats are caused by lack of a chip - most folk from around the round have no problem with them as long as they have told their bank bank first.
note also that "Europe" isn't a single country with a single type of smart cards - UK folk can't use their cards in petrol pumps for example
note also that "Europe" isn't a single country with a single type of smart cards - UK folk can't use their cards in petrol pumps for example
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:44 AM
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I don't know about bancomats, but SNCF hasn't ever accepted US credit cards in their vending machines, which isn't an ATM. The notable RER thing mentioned by the OP would be run by SNCF at CDG. It's hardly tragic, you just go to a clerk and buy a ticket directly.
I don't know why the OP would be using a credit card in a bancomat, that isn't a very good idea, anyway.
I don't know why the OP would be using a credit card in a bancomat, that isn't a very good idea, anyway.
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:47 AM
#18
The latest development in France for POS terminals and internet transactions has been to demand the "cryptogram" (I have no idea if it is called this in other countries -- it is the 3 digits on the back of a VI/MC card or the 4 printed -not embossed- digits on the front of an AX card.) My company had to update its terminals about 3 months ago. Now, even with the chip and PIN cards, sometimes the POS terminal will demand that the cryptogram digits be entered manually. If you just have the card number and not the cryptogram digits, the transaction is refused.
Jul 19th, 2007, 08:54 AM
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kathleen...
I'll give you a specific example. Last year the UK mandated chip and pin cards and signs went up to that effect..however these regs were only for cards issued in the UK. Magnetic stripe cards from third world countries such as the USA which only contained a magnetic stripe were still to be honored.
What it meant was a whole set of new terminals had to be ordered by all credit card merchants. These terminals accept both chip and pin cards (by inserting the card in its slot and entering the pin) and also has a place where a magnetic stripe card could be swiped. The merchant would be instructed that on these cards, they would have to obtain a signature on the receipt.
I have rarely encountered a problem in London...most merchants recognize a non chip and pin card and properly swipe it the normal way. Every so often I come across some uneducated clerk who inserts the card in the chip and pin reader (I hate when they do that as it can lead to problems with the magnetic stripe and the signature panel) and then tell me the card is no good. I explain to them they're supposed to swipe the card; sometimes it's necessary to bring the manager over and he sets the situation right.
So the answer to your question is yes, absolutely, magnetic stripe cards without a chip are valid whenever there is a manned (or womanned) clerk present.
The problem being discussed involves those locations where credit cards are used in machines and no clerk is present. In Europe, many gasoline (petrol) stations while closed on Sunday do allow motorists to fill up by inserting their credit cards in a machine on the pump (we have these of course in the USA at self service stations; however, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I have never encountered one if a station is otherwise closed, there's always a clerk present in case the machine doesn't recognize the credit card or for osme cassh transactions). It is in these machines that US and some other chip and pin cards if not compatible have problems. Many metro and RER stations in Paris only have machines that take only French chip and pin cards...in those cases you're third world magnetic stripe card is valid at the window but as noted sometimes this means waiting on a bit of a queue.
One other intesting point I made on the other thread...I notice that in London, almost every credit card transaction I do concludes with the clerk looking at the signature on the card and comparing it to the signature on the sales slip. This rarely happens anymore in the USA..most grocery stores, department stores and fast food stores now have swipe terminals where we swipe the card...in many cases we are no longer required to sign the sales slip, the transaction is done electronically (usuall for small amounts but at self service gasoline pumps where a fill up can now be in the vicinity of $50, I hardly would call that a small purchase). Anyway it is very rare in this day and age in the USA that anybody ever checks the signature on the card! I swipe it, put the card in my pocket and I may be asked to sign a receipt. Nobody checks the signature. (in some cases you now sign directly on the swipe terminal and the signature is captured electronically)....some merchants and self service pumps have the ability to ask for the zip code of the cardholder; in the case of foreign card holders, I don't know what they're supposed to do.
Finally, in some cases, some merchants in the USA ask for other identification for use of a credit card. Be aware this is 100% illegal according to mastercard and visa regs and while the merchants claim they are doing this to protect you, in reality by getting your driver's license number, it can make the theft of a credit card number worse. A stolen credit card number can at most be used to steal merchandise say on the web. This, while disconcerting to people, is easy to deal with. A couple of phone calls usually resolves the matter. But when one of these credit card rings get a hold of acredit card as well as other informaion about you such as a driver's license number or phone number, this can help them steal your identity. If a merchant asks for identification while doing a credit card transaction, do as I do, tell them politely it is illegal for them to do so and that they are protected if the signature on the card matches the signature on the sales slip.
I'll give you a specific example. Last year the UK mandated chip and pin cards and signs went up to that effect..however these regs were only for cards issued in the UK. Magnetic stripe cards from third world countries such as the USA which only contained a magnetic stripe were still to be honored.
What it meant was a whole set of new terminals had to be ordered by all credit card merchants. These terminals accept both chip and pin cards (by inserting the card in its slot and entering the pin) and also has a place where a magnetic stripe card could be swiped. The merchant would be instructed that on these cards, they would have to obtain a signature on the receipt.
I have rarely encountered a problem in London...most merchants recognize a non chip and pin card and properly swipe it the normal way. Every so often I come across some uneducated clerk who inserts the card in the chip and pin reader (I hate when they do that as it can lead to problems with the magnetic stripe and the signature panel) and then tell me the card is no good. I explain to them they're supposed to swipe the card; sometimes it's necessary to bring the manager over and he sets the situation right.
So the answer to your question is yes, absolutely, magnetic stripe cards without a chip are valid whenever there is a manned (or womanned) clerk present.
The problem being discussed involves those locations where credit cards are used in machines and no clerk is present. In Europe, many gasoline (petrol) stations while closed on Sunday do allow motorists to fill up by inserting their credit cards in a machine on the pump (we have these of course in the USA at self service stations; however, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I have never encountered one if a station is otherwise closed, there's always a clerk present in case the machine doesn't recognize the credit card or for osme cassh transactions). It is in these machines that US and some other chip and pin cards if not compatible have problems. Many metro and RER stations in Paris only have machines that take only French chip and pin cards...in those cases you're third world magnetic stripe card is valid at the window but as noted sometimes this means waiting on a bit of a queue.
One other intesting point I made on the other thread...I notice that in London, almost every credit card transaction I do concludes with the clerk looking at the signature on the card and comparing it to the signature on the sales slip. This rarely happens anymore in the USA..most grocery stores, department stores and fast food stores now have swipe terminals where we swipe the card...in many cases we are no longer required to sign the sales slip, the transaction is done electronically (usuall for small amounts but at self service gasoline pumps where a fill up can now be in the vicinity of $50, I hardly would call that a small purchase). Anyway it is very rare in this day and age in the USA that anybody ever checks the signature on the card! I swipe it, put the card in my pocket and I may be asked to sign a receipt. Nobody checks the signature. (in some cases you now sign directly on the swipe terminal and the signature is captured electronically)....some merchants and self service pumps have the ability to ask for the zip code of the cardholder; in the case of foreign card holders, I don't know what they're supposed to do.
Finally, in some cases, some merchants in the USA ask for other identification for use of a credit card. Be aware this is 100% illegal according to mastercard and visa regs and while the merchants claim they are doing this to protect you, in reality by getting your driver's license number, it can make the theft of a credit card number worse. A stolen credit card number can at most be used to steal merchandise say on the web. This, while disconcerting to people, is easy to deal with. A couple of phone calls usually resolves the matter. But when one of these credit card rings get a hold of acredit card as well as other informaion about you such as a driver's license number or phone number, this can help them steal your identity. If a merchant asks for identification while doing a credit card transaction, do as I do, tell them politely it is illegal for them to do so and that they are protected if the signature on the card matches the signature on the sales slip.
Jul 19th, 2007, 09:01 AM
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First of all, card issuers don't particularly care whether the person using the card is its lawful owner. If a merchant accepts a fraudulent transaction without positive identification, that merchant loses his money when the transaction is disputed. It doesn't cost the issuer a penny.
What DOES cost the issuers money is the "rogue merchant" who collects a pile of credit card numbers, runs transactions against them, withdraws the cleared funds, and flees.
In this case, the card issuer DOES eat the transaction, and the existence of this kind of fraud is the only reason you are exhorted to protect your card number. On-line, off-line, card present - doesn't matter. If the number will authorize, the issuer is vulnerable. C&P does not address this fraud, so issuers have no incentive to adopt it.
The banking laws in Europe are probably different in this regard, which would explain why C&P is so widespread there.
What DOES cost the issuers money is the "rogue merchant" who collects a pile of credit card numbers, runs transactions against them, withdraws the cleared funds, and flees.
In this case, the card issuer DOES eat the transaction, and the existence of this kind of fraud is the only reason you are exhorted to protect your card number. On-line, off-line, card present - doesn't matter. If the number will authorize, the issuer is vulnerable. C&P does not address this fraud, so issuers have no incentive to adopt it.
The banking laws in Europe are probably different in this regard, which would explain why C&P is so widespread there.
