rholt

2 questions

1) I understand they are strict about shorts in St Marks (Venice) and St Peters, but are they strict at other chrurches as well?

2) Do they enforce this rule for children (10 year old) as well?

Thanks,

Rick

ellenem

At major churches like St Mark's and St Peter's, there may be people at the door enforcing modest dress--no short/skirts above the knee, no bare shoulders/sleeveless tops. Knee-length shorts are usually fine. Other churches may not be able to afford staff to enforce dress, but will post pictures depicting these same guidelines. Children are cut some slack on dress, but I think it may depend upon how large/mature the child is for their age, rather than a particular age. Please respect these places of worship and the local people who worship there every day by dressing modestly.

J62

In my experience bare shoulders, midriff, &/or generous, exposed cleavage are considered more immodest than knee length shorts. A simple shawl stuffed in a purse is a good idea.

Shorter shorts that bare significant thigh are also a no-no. (Near) knee length shorts, or skirt aren't as much of an issue.

Assisi is another location where they actively check.

nytraveler

The shorts rule is not applied to small children.

For teens and adults the idea is that dress must be modest - that means no exposing knees, upper arms or bosoms - and certainly not midriffs.

This will be officially enforced at major cathedrals. At other churches there is rarely any official enforcement - but people dressed inappropriately can expect that they will receive dirty looks - and often very obvious comments - from local church goers - often elderly women who object to their church/religion being disrespected.

I think a separate question is why grown people would want to wander around major cities in europe in shorts - which there are typically reserved for resorts or athletic activities. To take aline from Two and a Half Men - wear the big boy (girl) pants.

walkinaround

crikey...talk about a puritanical society. i guess americans have far less hang-ups about the human body. what's wrong with these people getting all uptight about a little exposed leg.

Dazedandconfused

Walkinaround, as a Briton (as you always call yourself), I would expect you would know about the custom on the continent of showing respect in Roman Catholic places of worship. Shoulders and knees are covered as a sign of respect. American society is freer in this respect, but the OP specifically asked about the custom in Italy. Your lack of awareness on this matter is really quite shocking.

thursdaysd

I find it amusing that anyone would think Americans have fewer hang-ups about exposing flesh than the Europeans! (Just look at some newspapers and ads, not to mention top-less beaches.) And how many Americans actually go to church with exposed midriffs and thigh-high shorts?

charli

Europeans, especially in cities, are sophisticated dressers and very stylish and smart - they put us Americans to shame. It is not about having "less hang-ups about the human body" (check out European dress - or lack of - at their beaches), it is about respecting the cultures of other people where you are a guest. Many Americans are slobs when compared to city folks in the rest of the world - not just Europe. Actually, it is not pleasant for a lot of us to see lots of skin, appendages, and other body parts hanging out of clothing at places other than the beach.

annhig

to answer your question, [rather than the navel gazing that it going on above] the major places of worship definitely require you to cover your shoulders and knees, whether for reasons of modesty, respect or sheer bloody mindedness i will leave to others to pontificate about.

other places are MORE problematic. DH, wearing VERY decent knee-length shorts [trust me, they would not have embarrassed the most puritanical scout master] was thrown out of santa maria dei aracoeli [the church at the top of the capitoline hill in Rome] and made to wear a sarong in san lorenzo in Florence. we still tease him about his indecent knees.

if you have menfolk who feel uncomfortable in hot climates in trousers, get them a pair of the sort that you can remove part of the legs, so that if you want to go into a church, you can zip the legs back onto them.

Padraig

annhig wrote: "to answer your question, [rather than the navel gazing that it going on above]..."

Such apposite language! If the navel can be gazed at, stay out of the church.

walkinaround wrote: "crikey...talk about a puritanical society. i guess americans have far less hang-ups about the human body."

Really? I wear speedos when I go swimming, simply because they are the most practical option. You reckon that they don't bother Americans?

annhig

I thought you might like the "pontificate' too!

talking of speedos, should you wish to frequent a european public swimming pool, these are generally obligatory for men. no swimming shorts allowed. it would be positively indecent to speculate why!

enzian

But inquiring minds want to know. . . .

nytraveler

In fact in warmer areas of the US - and in summer in many other areas - people think nothing of going to church in shorts (not usually super shorty ones) and tee shirts. The priests are usually happy to have anyone turn up.

If it is amore conservative denomination this doesn't happen - but standards of "adult" dress are much different in many parts of the US.

Zerlina

But the point surely is that Italy is a different country from the US and they do things differently there?

Michael

<i>talking of speedos, should you wish to frequent a european public swimming pool, these are generally obligatory for men. no swimming shorts allowed. it would be positively indecent to speculate why!</i>

In France that public swimming pool rule went in effect around 1995. The claim was that it was not always possible to distinguish between street shorts and swimming trunks; it was an issue of cleanliness.

Active monasteries in Bucovina do not allow the knees to be shown.

A_Brit_In_Ischia

Rick,

One of the joys of living on Ischia is having five if not six months in shorts - and, both here and over all points south of Rome, I've visited and photographed some hundreds of churches dressed that way over the years.... however, although not by any particular design, we've only been to the Vatican in winter.

My usual suggestion to people is that they spend a little time on Flickr, and see from the photos there just what actually happens - for instance...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blarg/4...7624245609143/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/suzigun/5040064732/

Watch out for over-enthusiatic multiple tagging, and other wrong attributions... something that, hopefully, isn't necessary with my own collection - here:

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/root&view=tree

Peter

klondiketoo

As a teeneager (eons ago) I remember being shocked when a lady who was being denied entry into St. Mark's Venice because of her sleeveless attire very ceremoniously removed her multi-tiered petticoat from under her dress in front of the guard, draped it around her shoulders and was immediately allowed to enter.

At my impressionable age, the lace finery was much more titillating than her fat, bare arms ever could be, I assure you, and I struggled with the incongruity of the image even then, but customs are customs.

quokka

It must be really really hard for some people to accept that customs differ from country to country and place to place and that visitors can be expected to respect the customs of the locals, instead of the other way round.

ssander

Always be polite and respect the customs.

In Spain in May 2006, the temperature was 98 F the day we visited Toledo. I just carried a folded up pair of slacks in my day pack and put them on over my shorts before entering the cathedral...problem solved! It was actually quite temperate in the dark, thick-stone-walled building.

SS

Padraig

ssander wrote: "Always be polite and respect the customs.
In Spain in May 2006, the temperature was 98 F ..."

Respect the customs! The temperature was 37 C.