"Scots Tell London Hands Off Our Clocks" - U.K. Debates Moving Clocks Up...
 

one hour all year round - but some Scots object, saying that it would put sunrise around 10am in some Scottish parts in winter. This as the U.K. starts a debate on whether to move clocks everywhere ahead one hour - in effect joining with the rest of Europe in clock synchronization (if I figured it the right way?)

But the bill being debated in Parliament (NYTimes article says) " merely studies the financial implications of such a change, paving the way for a pilot project that could lead to a permanent clock resetting. Its supporters include groups representing cricket players, peopel with SADD, pub owners, dog breeders and environmentalists."

But Scots are up in arms over not only being left in the dark but also feel that their soveriegnty should include setting their own clocks and even though devolution gave many rights of self-governance to the Scottish Parliament setting the clocks was not one. (the article says.)

I am curious as to what Brits think about the as of yet just proposed clock moving up law? To an outsider who visits Britain a lot in winter I would applaud an extra hour of daylight to sightsee, say on a train or whatever. I would miss the one hour more of jet lag when flying into and out of the U.K. I guess. I can see why some Scots, especially those in the far north would object too.

It seems many Brits also are not keen on the proposed change - Peter Hitchins said in "recent column in the Mail "Don't Let them Force You to Live Your Life on Berlin Time."



Scots Tell London, Hands Off Our ClocksJan 20, 2011 ... A proposal to make daylight saving time year-round in Britain, in part to save energy, is meeting resistance from Scots, and from some in ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/wo...inverness.html

"To an outsider who visits Britain a lot in winter I would applaud an extra hour of daylight to sightsee, say on a train or whatever."

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, you're not getting an extra hour. You're merely ensuring that in most of England, it'll still be dark in Dec and Jan at 9 am, but stays light till 5.30 rather than 4.30.

Personally, I think the idea's nuts. It's supported mainly by people who get up late and stay up late - MPs, journalists, teenagers and similar slugabed tossers. It's claimed there are fewer road accidents, since more of the afternoon rush hour is in daylight - but that means exactly the same amount less daylight in the morning rush hour, so I disbelieve the figures. The "cricketers" argument is out and out barmy: cricket's only played when it gets dark around 9 pm

Peter Hitchens bats on a bit (like his imbecile brother) - but his point's sound. CET (the time zone for that small proportion of Europe's land mass that's an hour ahead of GMT) is designed so the sun's overhead Berlin - exactly an hour ahead of London by nature, and like London at the far east of the time zone - at 1200.

Can't get that excited, though. If most of my fellow English citizens agree, well thereare more iportant issues to kick up a fuss about. We'll then have the oddity that Scotland will stay on GMT, both Irelands will follow suit and the Welsh will want a referendum as well. But that's merely an oddity: if Indiana can handle two time zones, so can the British Isles.

I suppose there's an underlying argument that humanity has tended to use the extra leisure mechanisation creates for longer hours awake after sunset than before sunrise. So over the years, we've generally moved the mid-point of our days later and later after midday. So some might think the "God's time" argument doesn't work.

But it's a pain in today's winters being unable to take the flannerpooch out till after 8 am. Having to wait till after 9 will really bugger up my day.

It won't help people with SAD. It is dark until later in the morning, making it harder to get up on time. Lots of people in northern Europe experience symptoms of SAD.

I can't take my dog out until gone 9 at the moment and as Flanner says it is a pain.

As for the longer evenings in the summer - most people still have to get up for work through the summer, and may find it hard sleeping when it is still (relatively) light outside. I know we do, and in Scotland it would be even worse.

What I would like is for the clocks to either change at the beginning of March instead of the end, or not to change at all.

Flanner, I swear, every time Pal throws the baited hook into the water you gobble it up!

He probably has more luck here than when he's ice fishing :).

For once, the Scots are right. It is a stupid idea. Personally, I think France and (to a lesser extent) Spain should switch to GMT, as it would create a more natural day.

Then again, China gets by with one time zone, so maybe it doesn't matter?

I'm not particularly bothered, but then, I was a student during the last experiment with this.

By the way, the whole of the UK was on "Berlin Time" throughout the Second World War. It's not mentioned as having been among the greatest deprivations of that time: except, perhaps, for the GI reported to have been walking his girl in deperate search of a shady nook around 11pm in "Double Summer Time" and asking her "Doesn't it ever get dark in this goddam country?"

Pal, could you please come back to this thread and assure people that you and I are not the same person. I e-mailed the NY Times article to a certain Scot who shall remain nameless and his e-mail response to me was something along the lines of "Pal just posted this on the Europe Forum. Are you sure you're not the same person?". Of course the fact we've both lived in Michigan is possibly what's confusing him.

Thanks,
BC

"China gets by with one time zone"

It doesn't.

Get up at 7 am, Beijing time, in Urumqi or Kashgar and ask them what time it is and they'll tell you it's 5am. By which they mean Xinkiang time: the system people actually use whether the bloody Han colonists like it or not.

Ask at the bus station what time the bus leaves and they'll say 6. You then spend the next two hours trying to determine, if your Uighur is as bad as mine:
- whether that's Beijing or Xinkiang time, and
- which one the clock on the wall's showing.

By which time, of course, the damn bus has left.

And something quite similar happens in winter in the west of Ireland. No-one gets up till 10.

I'd point out that most of Scotland is WEST of the Greenwich Meridian so CET would be even worse for sunrise times. Portugal is on GMT for the same reason

However as in Edinburgh I've been going to work & coming home in the dark for the past 2 months, in reality it doesn't matter that much

Flanner, I swear, every time Pal throws the baited hook into the water you gobble it up!>

bait - one cannot raise an interesting topic with absolutely no attitude and be called a troll. Incridble and a simply, as Brits on Corrie often say just a stuuuuuuuupid comment!

yes it is revealed that bookchick and I are indeed the same person! Both U of M grads majoring in English and will long careers in jornalism and publishing - cannot hide that fact any longer - just call me bookchick!

As a frequent visitor to Britain the time thing is of interest to me - and yes I know there will not be an extra hour of daylight but when I am up and about there will be - in the afternoon. Reminds me of the debate we had here once about Daylight Savings Time years ago - one idiot actually complained that with the extra hour of daylight his grass would burn up in the summer.

I wish Europe would all adopt the same time, it's a pain in arse changing my watch everytime I visit Continental Europe.

I never took an English class at University of Michigan. I placed out of the English requirement, saving hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, in books, fees and tuition, not to mention time!

And these days I can only sorrowfully say that I wish my career were longer!

BC

>>it's a pain in arse changing my watch everytime I visit Continental Europe.<<

On the contrary (for me), it's one of those little rituals that tell you you're really on holiday. Like swapping my small change from canister to pocket and vice versa (yes, there still is a use for 35mm film canisters, Guardian readers!).

maybe its me nut i thought this was a travel forum nit the personal blog of a wannabe english man who gets his ideas of the true Brit experience by watching re-runs of Coronation street.
if you want to post crap post it in the lounge and leave the forum for proper travle related threads.

" the whole of the UK was on "Berlin Time" throughout the Second World War."

Yes, but only because Hitler had moved Berlin to Moscow Time. Just as the Kaiser had in WW1.

And practically the first thing both the West and East German governments did once they'd been allowed their own governments in 1949 was to switch back to Berlin Time.

FACT: No democratic German government has ever forced its citizens to adopt the time appropriate to places 1,000 miles further east.

....I thought this was a travel forum not the personal blog of a wannabe Englishman who gets his ideas of the true Brit experience by watching re-runs of Coronation street....

Yes. Most or not all of the posters on here are asking genuine questions about travel. Without even checking his name, you can immediately tell his subjects. Also, I might be judging him too harshly, but he does act as an agent provocateur if you don't like the word "troll".
You could imagine a poster asking if an extra hour of daylight might affect their enjoyment as a tourist.
However, look at the title ""Scots Tell London Hands Off Our Clocks" "
You imagine our friend chuckling to himself and hoping that there might be a bit of verbal aggro between the English and Scots on the forum.
As I deplore cruelty to defunct equines, I will not comment on this subject again.

unclegus mention of a blog, leads me to suggest quite seriously that PalenQ might enjoy writing one.

I live in Glasgow, and don't relish the idea of it not getting nlight until 0915 in Winter and it's not like I live in the north of Scotland, this is a city of 600,000 people and it would be the same for Edinburgh. Sending kids out to school in the dark when they are only just awake is an awful idea, and I'm sure that there will be more accidents. Aside if that, I'd struggle more than I already do with the short days in Winter.
Er, I'm English btw.....

Eh, oop.
with apologies to dead dobbin, that should have been "most, if not all", not "more or not all".
Today, every single posting apart from two are genuine queries about travel btw.
I rest my case ;-)

One hour won't make much of a difference when they're already 50 years behind - and besides, it'd make the curtains fade faster.

You could imagine a poster asking if an extra hour of daylight might affect their enjoyment as a tourist.>

being a tourist to me means also understanding current events, debates, etc. Yes josser wants only on the European forum for folks to ask about a certain restaurant or London flat. I travel not to stay in nice hotels but to understand and interact with different cultures and the time question is very relevant to a tourist - yes coming from Paris to London time change is a hassle - especially when losing an hour - someone like josser who apparently rarely travels may not realize this. that he/she wants to be a Fodor cop and restrict the European travel forum only to mundane questions of restaurants and hotels, etc IMO says a lot about his/her lack of substance travel wise.


However, look at the title ""Scots Tell London Hands Off Our Clocks" "

Well it were not my title josser but that of the NYTimes that I simply copied as I often do with a headline. Guess the Times folks just want to create a new war between English and Scots? Or yes are they simply reflecting reality.

Travel to some is food and lodging and transportation but to me it involves far far more and yes the changing of the time is just as important to me as 'where can I find the best scone in Glasgow.

Though police IMO are the real 'trolls'

Tis worrying.

There is over an hours time difference between a winter sunrise in Kent and Skye. In view of the fact that most Tories haven't been further north than Ascot, they will not see the issue in the same context.

flanner assumed that:
Peter Hitchens bats on a bit (like his imbecile brother) - but his point's sound. CET (the time zone for that small proportion of Europe's land mass that's an hour ahead of GMT) is designed so the sun's overhead Berlin - exactly an hour ahead of London by nature, and like London at the far east of the time zone - at 1200.

Which is obviously not true.

The Greenwich meridian has been designated as the starting point for the time zones. So in Greenwich, the sun will be directly over you at 12noon. Meaning that standard and solar time are the same in Greenwich - and all other places on the zero meridian.
Once you decided that and wish to stick to full 1 hour intervals, you cannot fabricate any time zone that has 12noon in Berlin. It will be 12noon standard and solar time exactly every 15 degrees East and West of Greenwich.

There is only one municipality in all of (what is now) Germany that the 15E meridian goes through (the rest of the country is West of 15E) and that is the border town of Görlitz.

Thus, Mr Hitchens point of Britain getting forced to live on "Berlin time" is not sound but pure hogwash.

<You could imagine a poster asking if an extra hour of daylight might affect their enjoyment as a tourist.>

yes josser it is relevant to tourists - at least those like me who are active in late afternoon in seeing parks, taking walks, train rides and coming to and from Paris.

And the other thread of mine you labelled a 'troll' involved how store clerks in Britain greet customers - well this too to me is relevant to tourists - what to expect and what is expected when dealing with clerks, etc. Should I say 'have a good day' or will Brits think me presumptive for doing, etc.

And just out of tourist curiosity - looking or in this case hearing for such pleasantries or lack of - these are things that intrigue me as a tourist as much as museums, etc. A to me a very very relevant topic for a European travel forum - I do not share your obviously myopic view that tourism info only should involve things like where can I find the best crumpets in London or what do you think about this fancy hotel.

Sorry but my view of what is relevant to a tourist is different than yours - and what you think is fine just do not try to impose your attitude on others as you have done by labeling this and the 'have a nice day' threads as 'trolls''

And yes do not be a Fodor's thought police by imposing subjective guidelines on others.