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PalenQ Jan 21st, 2011 07:12 AM

"Scots Tell London Hands Off Our Clocks" - U.K. Debates Moving Clocks Up...
one hour all year round - but some Scots object, saying that it would put sunrise around 10am in some Scottish parts in winter. This as the U.K. starts a debate on whether to move clocks everywhere ahead one hour - in effect joining with the rest of Europe in clock synchronization (if I figured it the right way?)

But the bill being debated in Parliament (NYTimes article says) " merely studies the financial implications of such a change, paving the way for a pilot project that could lead to a permanent clock resetting. Its supporters include groups representing cricket players, peopel with SADD, pub owners, dog breeders and environmentalists."

But Scots are up in arms over not only being left in the dark but also feel that their soveriegnty should include setting their own clocks and even though devolution gave many rights of self-governance to the Scottish Parliament setting the clocks was not one. (the article says.)

I am curious as to what Brits think about the as of yet just proposed clock moving up law? To an outsider who visits Britain a lot in winter I would applaud an extra hour of daylight to sightsee, say on a train or whatever. I would miss the one hour more of jet lag when flying into and out of the U.K. I guess. I can see why some Scots, especially those in the far north would object too.

It seems many Brits also are not keen on the proposed change - Peter Hitchins said in "recent column in the Mail "Don't Let them Force You to Live Your Life on Berlin Time."

Scots Tell London, Hands Off Our ClocksJan 20, 2011 ... A proposal to make daylight saving time year-round in Britain, in part to save energy, is meeting resistance from Scots, and from some in ...

flanneruk Jan 21st, 2011 08:52 AM

"To an outsider who visits Britain a lot in winter I would applaud an extra hour of daylight to sightsee, say on a train or whatever."

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, you're not getting an extra hour. You're merely ensuring that in most of England, it'll still be dark in Dec and Jan at 9 am, but stays light till 5.30 rather than 4.30.

Personally, I think the idea's nuts. It's supported mainly by people who get up late and stay up late - MPs, journalists, teenagers and similar slugabed tossers. It's claimed there are fewer road accidents, since more of the afternoon rush hour is in daylight - but that means exactly the same amount less daylight in the morning rush hour, so I disbelieve the figures. The "cricketers" argument is out and out barmy: cricket's only played when it gets dark around 9 pm

Peter Hitchens bats on a bit (like his imbecile brother) - but his point's sound. CET (the time zone for that small proportion of Europe's land mass that's an hour ahead of GMT) is designed so the sun's overhead Berlin - exactly an hour ahead of London by nature, and like London at the far east of the time zone - at 1200.

Can't get that excited, though. If most of my fellow English citizens agree, well thereare more iportant issues to kick up a fuss about. We'll then have the oddity that Scotland will stay on GMT, both Irelands will follow suit and the Welsh will want a referendum as well. But that's merely an oddity: if Indiana can handle two time zones, so can the British Isles.

I suppose there's an underlying argument that humanity has tended to use the extra leisure mechanisation creates for longer hours awake after sunset than before sunrise. So over the years, we've generally moved the mid-point of our days later and later after midday. So some might think the "God's time" argument doesn't work.

But it's a pain in today's winters being unable to take the flannerpooch out till after 8 am. Having to wait till after 9 will really bugger up my day.

hetismij Jan 21st, 2011 09:11 AM

It won't help people with SAD. It is dark until later in the morning, making it harder to get up on time. Lots of people in northern Europe experience symptoms of SAD.

I can't take my dog out until gone 9 at the moment and as Flanner says it is a pain.

As for the longer evenings in the summer - most people still have to get up for work through the summer, and may find it hard sleeping when it is still (relatively) light outside. I know we do, and in Scotland it would be even worse.

What I would like is for the clocks to either change at the beginning of March instead of the end, or not to change at all.

Dukey1 Jan 21st, 2011 10:27 AM

Flanner, I swear, every time Pal throws the baited hook into the water you gobble it up!

hetismij Jan 21st, 2011 10:35 AM

He probably has more luck here than when he's ice fishing :).

travelgourmet Jan 21st, 2011 10:42 AM

For once, the Scots are right. It is a stupid idea. Personally, I think France and (to a lesser extent) Spain should switch to GMT, as it would create a more natural day.

Then again, China gets by with one time zone, so maybe it doesn't matter?

PatrickLondon Jan 21st, 2011 11:05 AM

I'm not particularly bothered, but then, I was a student during the last experiment with this.

By the way, the whole of the UK was on "Berlin Time" throughout the Second World War. It's not mentioned as having been among the greatest deprivations of that time: except, perhaps, for the GI reported to have been walking his girl in deperate search of a shady nook around 11pm in "Double Summer Time" and asking her "Doesn't it ever get dark in this goddam country?"

bookchick Jan 21st, 2011 11:34 AM

Pal, could you please come back to this thread and assure people that you and I are not the same person. I e-mailed the NY Times article to a certain Scot who shall remain nameless and his e-mail response to me was something along the lines of "Pal just posted this on the Europe Forum. Are you sure you're not the same person?". Of course the fact we've both lived in Michigan is possibly what's confusing him.


flanneruk Jan 21st, 2011 11:38 AM

"China gets by with one time zone"

It doesn't.

Get up at 7 am, Beijing time, in Urumqi or Kashgar and ask them what time it is and they'll tell you it's 5am. By which they mean Xinkiang time: the system people actually use whether the bloody Han colonists like it or not.

Ask at the bus station what time the bus leaves and they'll say 6. You then spend the next two hours trying to determine, if your Uighur is as bad as mine:
- whether that's Beijing or Xinkiang time, and
- which one the clock on the wall's showing.

By which time, of course, the damn bus has left.

And something quite similar happens in winter in the west of Ireland. No-one gets up till 10.

alanRow Jan 21st, 2011 12:40 PM

I'd point out that most of Scotland is WEST of the Greenwich Meridian so CET would be even worse for sunrise times. Portugal is on GMT for the same reason

However as in Edinburgh I've been going to work & coming home in the dark for the past 2 months, in reality it doesn't matter that much

PalenQ Jan 21st, 2011 12:43 PM

Flanner, I swear, every time Pal throws the baited hook into the water you gobble it up!>

bait - one cannot raise an interesting topic with absolutely no attitude and be called a troll. Incridble and a simply, as Brits on Corrie often say just a stuuuuuuuupid comment!

yes it is revealed that bookchick and I are indeed the same person! Both U of M grads majoring in English and will long careers in jornalism and publishing - cannot hide that fact any longer - just call me bookchick!

As a frequent visitor to Britain the time thing is of interest to me - and yes I know there will not be an extra hour of daylight but when I am up and about there will be - in the afternoon. Reminds me of the debate we had here once about Daylight Savings Time years ago - one idiot actually complained that with the extra hour of daylight his grass would burn up in the summer.

Mucky Jan 21st, 2011 02:41 PM

I wish Europe would all adopt the same time, it's a pain in arse changing my watch everytime I visit Continental Europe.

bookchick Jan 21st, 2011 03:18 PM

I never took an English class at University of Michigan. I placed out of the English requirement, saving hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, in books, fees and tuition, not to mention time!

And these days I can only sorrowfully say that I wish my career were longer!


PatrickLondon Jan 21st, 2011 09:56 PM

>>it's a pain in arse changing my watch everytime I visit Continental Europe.<<

On the contrary (for me), it's one of those little rituals that tell you you're really on holiday. Like swapping my small change from canister to pocket and vice versa (yes, there still is a use for 35mm film canisters, Guardian readers!).

unclegus Jan 21st, 2011 11:31 PM

maybe its me nut i thought this was a travel forum nit the personal blog of a wannabe english man who gets his ideas of the true Brit experience by watching re-runs of Coronation street.
if you want to post crap post it in the lounge and leave the forum for proper travle related threads.

flanneruk Jan 21st, 2011 11:38 PM

" the whole of the UK was on "Berlin Time" throughout the Second World War."

Yes, but only because Hitler had moved Berlin to Moscow Time. Just as the Kaiser had in WW1.

And practically the first thing both the West and East German governments did once they'd been allowed their own governments in 1949 was to switch back to Berlin Time.

FACT: No democratic German government has ever forced its citizens to adopt the time appropriate to places 1,000 miles further east.

Josser Jan 22nd, 2011 12:20 AM

....I thought this was a travel forum not the personal blog of a wannabe Englishman who gets his ideas of the true Brit experience by watching re-runs of Coronation street....

Yes. Most or not all of the posters on here are asking genuine questions about travel. Without even checking his name, you can immediately tell his subjects. Also, I might be judging him too harshly, but he does act as an agent provocateur if you don't like the word "troll".
You could imagine a poster asking if an extra hour of daylight might affect their enjoyment as a tourist.
However, look at the title ""Scots Tell London Hands Off Our Clocks" "
You imagine our friend chuckling to himself and hoping that there might be a bit of verbal aggro between the English and Scots on the forum.
As I deplore cruelty to defunct equines, I will not comment on this subject again.

unclegus mention of a blog, leads me to suggest quite seriously that PalenQ might enjoy writing one.

alihutch Jan 22nd, 2011 01:32 AM

I live in Glasgow, and don't relish the idea of it not getting nlight until 0915 in Winter and it's not like I live in the north of Scotland, this is a city of 600,000 people and it would be the same for Edinburgh. Sending kids out to school in the dark when they are only just awake is an awful idea, and I'm sure that there will be more accidents. Aside if that, I'd struggle more than I already do with the short days in Winter.
Er, I'm English btw.....

Josser Jan 22nd, 2011 01:48 AM

Eh, oop.
with apologies to dead dobbin, that should have been "most, if not all", not "more or not all".
Today, every single posting apart from two are genuine queries about travel btw.
I rest my case ;-)

farrermog Jan 22nd, 2011 02:18 AM

One hour won't make much of a difference when they're already 50 years behind - and besides, it'd make the curtains fade faster.

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