Schengen Student Visa Confusion
 

Anyone out there understand how this student visa works for an American citizen? I know it's for a 90 day or longer stay, but since the study abroad program in Spain is 88 days, a student does not actually need a visa for this particular program.
Is the visa only required for 90 CONSECUTIVE days? What if the student is coming and going from Spain during the 90 days, but still traveling within Schengen countries?? Does that count as part of the 90 days?
If the student wants to travel for a week or two before returning to the states, is a visa necessary if the student visits other Schengen countries, like Italy or France?? And if the student visits the United Kingdom, and flies in and out of London, I assume that's ok without a visa, since it's not a Schengen country??
It's confusing, especially since each Spanish consulate has different requirements. It's also difficult because they make you appear in person to present several documents and your passport for your application, then it takes 6- 8 weeks to acquire.
Anyone have direct experience with this? How do they track how long you've been in each country, etc? We sure don't want to challenge any international law, but also don't understand the details. Help, please.

Hi maureen,

Am I correct that your student will have an 88 day program in Spain and then wants to travel for a week or two after that?

All countries within the Schengen zone are treated as a single visit - going from one to the other doesn't affect the clock.

The student won't need a visa for up to 90 days, but will need one after that.

In practice, no one bothers students if they stay a week too long, assuming they behave themselves.

((I))

Thanks, Ira. I guess the Schengen countries are treated as one entity-- which I didn't understand when I started researching the Spanish student visa. It's a pain. And yes, you're correct in assuming she wants to spend the final couple of weeks traveling-- probably to Italy. What's the worst case scenario? If we can't get a visa in time and she overstays by a week or ten days-- deportment??

one can stay with no problems up to 90 days.
do not worry.

like ira said.. a few days or week here or there extra is not going to alarm any offical upon departure.

My son is studying abroad in Italy. He left the States at the end of August and will be home 12/18. His college advised that he put down a total of 6 months for the visa for his visit and when putting down "Schengen" countries he put down "all". He did not know which of the countries he would end of visiting and they suggested that is how to do it. So far he has been in Italy where he studies (I think that is what he is there for, lol) Budapest, Spain, Amsterdam and Prague. Just make sure they put down at least for the six months and they should be fine.

Lincasanova, thanks for your comment. You gave me some good info. on another thread re: study abroad. She's probably choosing the CCIS program in Seville. So, in your experience, a student who overstays by a week or two isn't subject to scrutiny and problems? I'm afraid to have her risk getting in trouble. Maybe, as Kadurk49 suggests, she could get an Italian-based visa instead, as they are much easier and quicker to obtain. Would make life easier and she'd be safe with a visa. Otherwise, is it really stupid to be there two weeks overtime w/o a visa?

IF you go to the hassle of applying for a visa, you can only apply where you actually meet the requirements.. (student visa.. proof of studies, etc.) and if this is in SPAIN, you will need to deal with spain anyway. so. italy doens't fit your situation.

all i can tell you is that this visa thing over here is so out of control.. what she will get from the spanish consulate in USA is not the final visa BTW. she will receive a student entrance visa that allows her to go APPLY AGAIN for her final STUDENT residency card before the 90 days are up.

since they are behind in giving all these applicants appointments.. her appt. will most likely be AFTER she leaves.

once the appt is acheived, and all the SAME papers turned in AGAIN, she will wait 6 months to receive the student residency card.

so...

go figure.

i, personally, would not worry one iota about being in spain a few extra days or week.

however, i am not encouraging you to do anything you feel uncomfortable with, but if it was my NIECE, i would just have her come with NO VISA and leave as close to 90 days as possible, unless gettingthis application in person is not so difficult. but i wouldn't even re-apply in spain since she wil have left before her appointment here.

(going to other countries BY AIR may be your only problem).

FYI: my own presdiency card has been expired for many months due to some new paper they need from me.(it has taken the judicial system 7 months to get me that paper) and i have left spain on an american passport to italy three times, germany once, without even showing my residency card.. and i have been here long more than 90 day between trips if they check the dates.

sometimes i think it is worse to have the VISA seal/paper in your passport because they really DO check those dates.

Maureen-don't even think about getting an Italian visa if your kid is not really studying there! They are extremely time consuming to get(sometimes up to 8 weeks without your passport) and with the Italians they want all sorts of letters from the school,insurance info and what you have in the way of money that will be financing your education while over there.We went through this two years ago with my son for his studies in Torino and now we are going through it with my daughter studying in Sicily.I know that when he studied in Prague he could not get his student visa in time so he was told that he must leave the country every 30 days for a weekend and then come back in to start another 30 days-go figure?

lincasanova and dutyfree, you are so right about the hassle of a visa, and its nonsensical nature. Looking at the Italian consulate's website, it says only up to 10 days for the Schengen app. process, so I thought that would be more feasible than the Spanish visa process, which takes up to 8 weeks. And I did not read anywhere that you still have to submit the same papers to re-apply once you're in Spain-- that would make no sense, especially if they make you re-submit your passport and you are traveling on weekends during the stay.
So good to know about the process, and they are behind in giving appointments anyway. Jeez, seems like a no-win for both sides. You'd think they could make it better for the students if the consulates would allow the bona fide universities to fast-track the process for the students. That would solve the problem for everyone concerned. Of course, in today's world, it is probably better to be strict and safe about it.
This is all further complicated by the fact that different Spanish consulates in the U.S. have different application requirements for documentation! I even know students who live in Colorado and had to FLY to Los Angeles, our Colorado consulate, simply to present the paperwork in person. Now that would be a big hassle, not to mention expense.
I guess we will apply here, because I know my daughter doesn't want to risk being thrown in a Spanish jail! What would they do, anyway?

Hi MB,

>is it really stupid to be there two weeks overtime w/o a visa?<

Only if you get into trouble for another reason.

No one is going to come around asking to see her passport to determine if she has overstayed her time.

The worst thing that could happen is that she will be sent home.

If she can get the 6 mos visa, good; if not, I suggest that you not worry.

((I))

I don't know about Spain, but in France they barely look at your passport and I haven't had it stamped in several years. If it isn't stamped on entry there is no way they know how long you have been there. And when you travel from one Schengen country to another there is seldom a passport check except for ID purposes. So the key question is wether they stamp on the way into Spain. If the atudenty clears customs and imigration in another Schengen country before getting to Spain that would eliminate the issue IMHO. Of course I am a 63 year old caucasian grandmother and don't attract a lot of attention. It might be different for a person of color or someone who looks counter-cultural. On trains for example all I usually have to do, if that, is hold up the passport, they see the US-ness of it and don't bother to look.

Ira, you say "no one is going to come around asking to see her passport to determine if she has overstayed her time"-- but what about when she travels between the Schengen countries, don't they check her passport each time she enters and leaves? If they do, I guess they'd have to do some serious math to figure out how long she'd stayed, non?
I know I'm a worry-wart, just don't want my twenty-year-old daughter to find herself in legal straits in a foreign country.

sfowler, your response and my question were posted at the same time. She would probably fly from the States to London, and then catch a flight to Seville, Spain. So it will be her first entry, and I'm guessing they will stamp her passport. Your information does answer my question re: how strict the passport checks are between Schengen countries. I know I'm over-thinking this issue...

Maureen:

You're getting some confused - and some downright wrong - advice here.

Without a Schengen visa, a US citizen is entitled to a stay of IN TOTAL 90 days in any 180 in the whole of the Schengen area.

Now it's quite irrelevant whether a passport is stamped when that citizen crosses an intra-Schengen border. Passports ARE stamped on entry into Schengen, and ARE examined whenever a foreigner exits. Going to Britain (or Switzerland) doesn't reset the clock: but the (say) two days you spend there don't couint to your 90. But to be clear: if you've stayed 88 days in Spain, go to Britain and return to Spain (or any other Schengen country), you've got exactly 2 days left. 3 and you're breaking the law and WILL be deported if found.

One day over and you're a criminal. Just as a Spaniard is when they overstay their permitted time in the US. And the overstay can come to light in all sorts of ways: random papers inpections, re-imposition of border controls with France, you name it. Offialdom finds ways of justifying its existence the world over.

Now the Spaniards aren't going to run round seeking out overstayers. They might not deport your children immediately if they find them. And they might treat them in a more civilised way than America treats European visa infractors. Spain might not handcuff them and detain them in jail. But if Spain does, your chlidren's cellmates will be just as much fun to be with as the fellow-guests British jounalists have in US jails if they change planes in America without geting the special visa journalists are required to have.

Conditions of arrest aside, there are few stupider things for a Western student to do than get deported from another Western country, since their travel will be severely impeded for the foreseeable future.

These aren't technicalities, and anyone telling you the Spaniards are more civilised in these things than the US is simply fantasising.

If these students will be in Schengen for less than 90 days, and they've visa-free access, fine. If they're going to be in Spain for 88 and Italy 3, you must get the proper visa.

Spending the rest of your life with "Deportee" on your Schengen computer file (a file that's accesible to other administrations) is a lot more inconvenient than standing in a queue somewhere for an hour.

If she is just transiting the UK her first immigration will be Spain. The key question remains how regularly they stamp incoming passengers passports coming from the UK.

My experience entering Spain through Seville [super town!] in 1982 is that even though I had transited there was no immigration or no customs at the airport. I bet that has changed though!

Of course I've also circled a landing field in a plane to scare the cows off before landing [on Ansett Airways in Australia, 1995]

flanneruk, you're probably right-- she should bite the bullet, get the papers together, go to D.C., and stand in line.

obviously, do what you want.. but i can guarantee you that americans are not handcuffed and deported for a few days over their stay here in spain.

it is IMPOSSINLE to actually process stage two of the student residency card in the short time your daughter will be here. she will receive a visa good for 90 days which she needs to "upgrade " to longer student residency once here.
so.. no visa is same as 90 day student visa. (phase one of residency). unless they give you an initial 6 month visa in passport( which i have never seen)..it is usually 90 days and then extend it.

many many clients of mine have been here for over a year, WAITING for residency to be processed and finally had gone home before residency had been finalized.

also a brazilian student came into spain without the student visa.. we couldn´t get it processed..( missing some papers.). and she even went to travel to prague and germany with her mom with no problem.

those having major problems without visas are the members of countries who actually need a TOURIST visa even to get in for touring on vacation.
THEY have major problem and are very scrutinized at every airport check-in gate.

americans are not in this group and i sincerely doubt anything will endanger her trip.

i am just warning you about everything she needs to do once here.
the consulate does not explain it clearly and are oblivious as far as i am concerned about giving correct precise info.

they usually tell people "when you get to spain, go to the police to formalize your papers".

wow. wait until she tries that.

keep us informed.

p.s. spain is by no means anywhere similar to the u.s.a. in as far as immigration control.. computer checks.. keeping tabs on people. anyone arriving here by plane can tell you that.

Thank you again, lincasanova. I believe you have a lot of experience with study abroad, non? And you are right, nowhere on the Spanish consulate's website does it say you still have to hassle with paperwork once you're in Spain. It's a Catch 22. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
I think my daughter's options are three: 1. get a visa, 2. don't get a visa and closely observe the 90 day rule, then visit the U.K. for her final two weeks, because it's not in Schengen (except she's been to London twice already); 3. don't get a visa and find out while there how much leeway she feels she'd have after the 90 days.
As always, this forum is most helpful. Any other brilliant solutions?

I don't have any info that will really help you but just a few thoughts. First - why is it a huge hassel for her to get the student visa? If there is an office within even a few hours drive from where you live I suggest she drive there and do it in person rather than by mail. My daughter needed a French student visa two years ago and drove the three hours to the nearest city that had an office and got hers in one day. First they told her it wouldn't be ready till the following day but when she told them how far she had to drive they did it in a few hours. Even is she had to spend the night it would be worth it. By mail, it would have taken much longer.

The other thing, while they seem to rarely stamp passports these days, they always scan them. I don't know for sure, but doesn't that entry date go into a computer? So even if there is not a physical stamp on the passport, they can still tell when you entered (I believe). Also, the main piece of paperwork they seem to need with student visas is a round trip plane ticket. I think they want to be sure you aren't going to get stuck over there with no money to buy yourself a way home. So in that case, they'd be able to check the date you entered that way.

As the mother of someone who has done two study abroads in the past two years, I would make her get the visa, even though the Spanish one apparently is more complicated that some others. At least if she makes the attempt to have the proper paper work, even if she doesn't have time to get the part 2, she'd be in better shape in the slim chance that there were some kind of problem.

i am VERY curious to know what your nearest spanish consulate is telling her about) 1-after applying in person, how many days til they give her passport back to her with visa in it

2)what EXACTLY she needs to do in spain (obligate them to give you an address where this can be done and system of proceedure)

3) ask them exactly what can happen to her if she leaves a few days later.

they can give you those answers.. let´s compare notes later.

i, and many other agents, are in the process of making a claim letter to the spanish consulates as they have really screwed up MOST of our relocation clients entrances to this country by NOT giving them the FULL info.

the country members needing a visa even for tourism get caught here during this 6-9 month process and cannot even LEAVE the country.

(the initial 90 day visa they give everyone to go RE-apply for final ressssssidency runs out, and they cannot get back in.

they can LEAVE ( your daughter could LEAVE like everyone else) but then getting back requires ANOTHER authorization that now takes 30 days after applicationfor that.
so..

really.

americans used to have 6 months here.
then i guess it was reduced .. probably because schengen countries only get 90 days in USA visa-free.

so..it is reciprocal.

good luck. but ask a lot of questions and see what they honestly say.

it really irritates me that this is easier in other countries.

once you get a student visa in the USA ( for USA stuides), it is for the full time of your studies, renewable upon completion of studies.
not so here.
you need to request THAT once you get here.

Lincasanova, the consulates don't communicate with applicants to answer questions. I have faxed, e-mailed and called her closest consulate, which is in D.C., and have received no answer. On the phone, after being in phone mail jail for a long time, I finally got to a live person, who was very brusque and would only tell me the student has to apply IN PERSON-- end of story.
And, as you probably know, each Spanish consulate in the U.S. has different requirements for a visa application. So it is quite possible she could get to D.C. and have the wrong or incomplete paperwork. They are very picky about exactly how every document is worded. Plus, the website says she CANNOT apply in D.C. Even though her school is in their territory in Maryland, the website says she'd have to apply in Los Angeles, her consulate for state-of-residence. Even though the person on the phone said otherwise, I am skeptical.
They may expect her to fly from Baltimore to Los Angeles for a 10 minute session of application!! (I do know people from Colorado who have had to fly their students to L.A. for this purpose. And one of them had to make a return flight because her paperwork wasn't letter perfect.)
And NOWHERE on any consulate website does it say this is only step one in the process, lincasanova. I will double-check it, though.
Best case, my daughter would have to go to D.C. in person, submit the paperwork and her passport, then it will take SIX to EIGHT weeks to get the visa and passport back in the mail. It is a tight time-frame, as she needs her acceptance letter and confirmation of tuition paid in order to apply, which she won't receive till December. She needs to leave Feb 1, so will not have eight weeks for the process. It's definitely a system that is designed to confound!
Isabel, I feel the same way-- that if at all possible, she should get the visa just in case, for those extra few days' of travel. However, without a car, and on the other side of the country from us, she'd have to take a day off school (which is not easy for pre-med at Johns Hopkins!) and travel by train to D.C. Which would be barely do-able, if the time-frame would work.
The easiest thing to do is to skip the visa, since it's not required for the actual study abroad program which is less than 90 days. Then, with the extra travel time, she'd go to other than a Schengen country, as the U.K. is.
Good thing the CCIS- Seville program is smart to make their study semester only 88 days! At least we have that option.

Lincasanova, FYI, this is copied from the Spanish consulate in D.C.'s web page. Note what is says at the end, re: good for six months' stay. So I assume they mean students who stay less than six months do not have to re-apply while in Spain.

REQUIREMENTS TO APPLY FOR A STUDENT VISA

A student visa is mandatory for any foreigner wishing to study in Spain for 3 months or longer.

This Consulate General has jurisdiction over the following States: Washington DC, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia and North Carolina.

If your permanent residence is in one of these States you must apply at this Consulate. If your permanent residence is in another State contact the Consulate that has jurisdiction over your State. We will not accept applications from students whose permanent adress is not part of our jurisdiction.

The visa is processed in your country of residence prior to your departure. You cannot get the visa in Spain, and you cannot have it sent to you. The visa is affixed in your passport before you depart the U.S., and must be presented at the border Officials upon your entry into Spain.

Due to the overwhelming demand for student visas, it is important that you allow enough time for the Consulate to process your visa.

To apply for a student visa the following requirements are necessary:

·       &nbsp ; Personal appearance is required in order to submit the documentation. We understand that this is difficult for some students, but this regulation can only be waived if a student's parent presents the application in place of the student.

·       &nbsp ; Passport valid for a minimum of 6 months. Make sure your passport is signed.

·       &nbsp ; 1 recent picture, passport size. No senior pictures cut down to size or photocopies of other pictures, these must be passport photos.

·       &nbsp ; Original letter addressed to this Consulate General verifying enrollment as a full-time student in an official University or School in Spain, and verification of full payment of tuition. THIS LETTER MUST ALSO state that the student has medical insurance coverage while the student is in Spain.  If there is no insurance information on this letter, the student will need a letter from their insurance company verifying that he/she is covered internationally.

·       &nbsp ; If you are not a citizen of the United States, bring your “green card” or student visa and I-20 form.

·       &nbsp ; Original medical certificate typed on doctor’s stationary verifying that the applicant is in good health. This letter must be signed by a doctor.

·       &nbsp ; If you are going to spend more than 6 months in Spain,  you  must bring an original certificate of good conduct issued by the police department of the city or cities in which the applicant has spent 6 months or more during the last 5 years.

·       &nbsp ; You must bring the original documents plus one photocopy of each, including your passport.

You must also submit one of the following items to guarantee living expenses while in Spain:

·       &nbsp ; Letter from the study abroad program assuming full financial responsibility for tuition, room and board for the student during his stay in Spain. For many students this information is included on the previously mentioned letter of acceptance.

·       &nbsp ; Proof of having received financial aid or scholarship covering expenses for tuition, room, board, and personal expenses during the stay in Spain (minimum of $350 per month).

·       &nbsp ; Notarized letter from parents assuming full financial responsibility for the student for at least $500 per month of stay in Spain.

Applications will not be accepted more than 90 days in advance or less than 45 business days prior to departure date, passports must be left at this Consulate General for processing. Take into consideration any holidays there might be. It may take four weeks or longer to process your application. You will be advised of the processing time when you apply.

If you have time for your passport to be returned by mail, bring a pre-paid self-addressed, express or priority mail envelope from the Post Office. Other express delivery service, certified or registered mails are not accepted. Tracking of mailed items is the responsibility of the applicant.

Fees:

US citizens: Money Order payable to the Consulate General of Spain for $100.00 non-refundable visa processing fee. (Personal checks are not accepted). Although the visa is free, due to reciprocity to U.S. procedure with Spanish passports, an equivalent amount of $100.00 is charged as processing fee to US passports.
Non US citizens: Money Order payable to the Consulate General of Spain for $72.36, non-refundable fee (No personal checks).
The visas issued in this office are valid for six months. If you are staying longer, before your visa expires, you need to go to the closest police station with your passport and police record to get an extension of your visa.

first of all, it says the visa is for students who are studying 90 days or more.

don't think this applies to you.

p.s. i have NEVER seen a 6 month visa. all my students have had 90 days to go get the extension for the 6-12 months.. maybe this is new this year.

good luck.

If the student is going on a sponsored program, can't the sponsoring university offer advice and help? Or is it trying to avoid the responsibility by having an 88 day program?

Actually, the most the university can do is offer advice-- they cannot get the visa for the students. But offering a less-than-90-day program is the best help they can give-- then students don't really need a visa, not for the program itself anyway.
I'm over-thinking this I'm sure. My daughter should just travel within the parameters of 90 days in Schengen countries, other days elsewhere. The Schengen countries are shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak, since they lose tourism dollars this way. They should make the student visa required after 6 months, not 3.

i think it's great they make the 88 day program. talk about making it easier for the student...

seriously... she can pop over to morocco/switzerland and get a stamp in passport during her stay to make her feel better. she will have a more recent entry stamp.. so she won't feel they are only looking at her first entry, and this way she will feel more comfortable about not getting arrested anywhere.. (which i tell you.. is not going to happen).

Lincasanova, thanks again. Do you think they look at the most recent stamp? I know my daughter likes to get the stamps, and feels she's been gypped when they don't stamp it!
What is your job having to do with study abroad?

In the last few years most of the time they do NOT stamp your passport anymore, even when entering countries from the US, and I have not had my passport even looked at when going in and out of Schengen countries (into and out of England and Switzerland into other countries like France and Italy). So please don't think that by doing that she can avoid any possible problems.

How many places does she plan to visit? How intense is her program? Perhaps she can do weekend type trips during the 88 day program, then when it's over she can go to England and or Switzerland for a few weeks. That would solve your problem wouldn't it?

Another, not quite legal but probably pretty safe, option would be to have her return ticket (to the US) from either England or Switzerland, and then she could do a short trip into somewhere else (like Italy from Switzerland where they almost certainly would not be checking her passport. This might be "safer" than having her fly home from a Schengen country when they might notice the dates. But of course at that point what could they do to her.

i have been sending /receiving students for 30 years over here, to/from USA/RUSSIA/brasil; etc.

i am very familiar with the visa hassle. i actually have to DO IT ALL for the students as their language level is USEless when they get here.

however. i cannot remark enough of all the students (USA; let's concentrate on them) that overstay the requirement, for travel with their parents to other countries, etc.. and have encountered no problem as far as i know.

i do think her passport will be stamped upon entering madrid, as she will have filled out a landing card. but after that.. i doubt there will be any stamps throughout europe by plane.

land patrol borders are virtually non-existant.

so.. whatever.

a weekend in morocco with friends (cheap and fun) would att least give her the new later entry stamp.. if she is most concerned.. but, i , personally, would not even worry about that..

i know all this sounds vague.. strange..and not kosher.. but i even have ASKED the airport police and if the person is returning to her homeland.. they don't even do anything when they are beyond the 90 days.

open jaw into spain and out of england would at least leave her where she wants to travel to so not having to re-enter spain if that makes you feel better ( as previously mentioned).

since i assume she is NOT travelling lightly.. she will have HUGE excess luggage bills on low cost airlines.
she can bus/train her way all through europe to avoid that, or pack lightly.

i suggest she does NOT bring one of those MASSIVE american coffin size "up to the limit" suitcases. they hardly fit in the trunk of anyone's car.. or taxi.

20 and sometimes 15 kilos is limit on lowcost airlines, and 20k. official airlines throughout europe. keep this in mind.

they also weigh hand luggage. some are 10 k. others 5!!



so.. she should go to england as soon as she finshes the course.. (she will still be within the 90 days) and enjoy herself.

when entering england they usually ask you how many days you will be there.. and that is that..

Lincasanova, thank you again for all your patient replies. It is more than helpful to hear from you about how the process actually works (or actually doesn't work!).

I think the plan will be to fly sans visa on British Airways from the States to Seville via London. We'll buy her return fare from London, and she will have freedom then to travel as she wishes to London for departure a few days after the semester.

keep in mind her european luggage 20 kilo allotment for the seville-london portion of trip since she is not connecting to the usa same day.. she will be charged for overweight if she does not abide by the intra-european limit.

she will love sevilla. our son was visiting friends down there again and said if he ever had to move in spain, he would love to live there.

it is a FUN place for young (and older) people.

My daughter, being a packrat, is notorious for over-stuffing her luggage. Thanks for the heads up, Lincasanova-- I'll tell her the limits.