Are You On Uncle Sam's No Fly List?
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:15 AM
#1
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Are You On Uncle Sam's No Fly List?
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:27 AM
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Hi Folks,
Hope I don't regret breaking my usual silence to respond here.
Wayne, I'm a liberal and oppose profiling, but not for the reason you suppose. I'm afraid that, as soon as we're comfy & happy that all the suspicious looking dark men are profiled, the bad guys will start using innocent-looking babes to do their harm. Some blonde-headed, corn-fed kid from the heartland. Like Timothy.
Instead of profiling, we need good, old-fashioned intelligence work. It's difficult, it's quiet, it's long-term, and it's expensive. But it's the best bet.
s
Hope I don't regret breaking my usual silence to respond here.
Wayne, I'm a liberal and oppose profiling, but not for the reason you suppose. I'm afraid that, as soon as we're comfy & happy that all the suspicious looking dark men are profiled, the bad guys will start using innocent-looking babes to do their harm. Some blonde-headed, corn-fed kid from the heartland. Like Timothy.
Instead of profiling, we need good, old-fashioned intelligence work. It's difficult, it's quiet, it's long-term, and it's expensive. But it's the best bet.
s
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:29 AM
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Wayne,
I would like to believe that I live in a country where 1 innocent is more important then 20 guilty, because I can't imagine if I'm the innocent and nobody hears my cries. Your opinion may be different. I just hope that you will never be the innocent one that the government takes away.
I would like to believe that I live in a country where 1 innocent is more important then 20 guilty, because I can't imagine if I'm the innocent and nobody hears my cries. Your opinion may be different. I just hope that you will never be the innocent one that the government takes away.
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:31 AM
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Hi Wayne, did you actually read the article?
Still, I think the trouble is that terrorists may not be easily identifiable or profiled. There're American tourists as well. What about Timothy McVeigh? Granted, he didn't crash a plane. But. . .
Anyone could potentially be a terrorist. You may be thinking now that some measure doesn't affect you, but you just never know.
Still, I think the trouble is that terrorists may not be easily identifiable or profiled. There're American tourists as well. What about Timothy McVeigh? Granted, he didn't crash a plane. But. . .
Anyone could potentially be a terrorist. You may be thinking now that some measure doesn't affect you, but you just never know.
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:31 AM
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Ira,
The full sentence that you quote from is:
"The list isn't new. It has been in existence since about 1990 but was expanded after the September 11th attacks.". IT is the expansion that concerns many of us.
The difference between the Clinton administration and the current administration is John Ashcraft.
The full sentence that you quote from is:
"The list isn't new. It has been in existence since about 1990 but was expanded after the September 11th attacks.". IT is the expansion that concerns many of us.
The difference between the Clinton administration and the current administration is John Ashcraft.
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:32 AM
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This might be a smart idea that will save lives. It may already have done so. What is scary is that some people always jump to negative conclusions without all the facts and without providing alternatives. Detaining two folks at the airport doesn't automatically make this security tactic the wrong thing to do.
The world has changed after 911, but some people just don't get that fact. Stopping a tiny percentage of the traveling public from flying or giving some folks a closer look (plenty need it) is a small price to pay for extra security.
The world has changed after 911, but some people just don't get that fact. Stopping a tiny percentage of the traveling public from flying or giving some folks a closer look (plenty need it) is a small price to pay for extra security.
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:40 AM
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I've an amusing story of being given a boarding pass with the wrong name and walking through security twice without being flagged. My passport was checked, twice. My boarding card was checked, twice.
It wasn't until I got on my flight and realized that my seat was taken that we realized the problem (and the flight attendant only realized this after about five minutes).
It gives me a cynical view regarding security.
By the way, this happened for an international flight.
Do people remember the stories about the canceled BA flights several months back? Didn't the purported "terrorists" turn out to be a baby and an old Chinese woman?
What we need are people who know how to do their jobs. Until we have that, I remain skeptical of increased security measures.
It wasn't until I got on my flight and realized that my seat was taken that we realized the problem (and the flight attendant only realized this after about five minutes).
It gives me a cynical view regarding security.
By the way, this happened for an international flight.
Do people remember the stories about the canceled BA flights several months back? Didn't the purported "terrorists" turn out to be a baby and an old Chinese woman?
What we need are people who know how to do their jobs. Until we have that, I remain skeptical of increased security measures.
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:40 AM
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The difference between "now" and "then" is that people are apparently being added for expressing their political views in a fully legal manner. Opposition to Bush's war is beginning to count as a "terrorist activity". And there is, as there was in the McCarthy era, no recourse.
As I posted on the US forum -- "This is the new blacklist -- It isn't that we can't work in Hollywood, now we can't fly there."
As I posted on the US forum -- "This is the new blacklist -- It isn't that we can't work in Hollywood, now we can't fly there."
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:57 AM
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I wonder why a legitimate concern somehow degenerates into demoralizing liberals? It seems that some self-righteous neocon can't resist the opportunity to be negative. This is the same person who would raise holy hell if he were to be 'profiled'.
Personally, this scares the heck out of me. What if republicans were targeted....what would your position be then?
Personally, this scares the heck out of me. What if republicans were targeted....what would your position be then?
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:02 AM
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<b>They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
Benjamin Franklin
As a rule, dictatorships guarantee safe streets and terror of the doorbell. In democracy the streets may be unsafe after dark, but the most likely visitor in the early hours will be the milkman.
Adam Michnik
It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.
Thomas Jefferson</b>
Benjamin Franklin
As a rule, dictatorships guarantee safe streets and terror of the doorbell. In democracy the streets may be unsafe after dark, but the most likely visitor in the early hours will be the milkman.
Adam Michnik
It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.
Thomas Jefferson</b>
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:17 AM
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I read the CNN article...what bothers me (among other things) is that people who were on the no fly list and proven to be innocent are STILL having problems. What's the recourse if you're falsely accused? What happens in the case of identity theft? I hate the argument of "well go ahead, I have nothing to hide." Maybe you don't, but a computer error might suggest you DO.
Also, Wayne, your comment was one of the most offensive I've ever read on this board, even including the pre-registration flame wars. That type of comment has NO place on this board.
Also, Wayne, your comment was one of the most offensive I've ever read on this board, even including the pre-registration flame wars. That type of comment has NO place on this board.
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:18 AM
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Wayne says "You liberals who can't see the picture in front of your turned-up noses deserve to have been on one of those 9/11 flights."
See, that is the problem with the radical conservatives...if you don't agree with them you should be dead. I fail to see how they are any different than the radical terrorists.
See, that is the problem with the radical conservatives...if you don't agree with them you should be dead. I fail to see how they are any different than the radical terrorists.
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:20 AM
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I've read and reread that article 3 times now. Admittedly, I can be a bit dense, but I can not find the parts stating that "the liberals" have a problem with the existence of this list or a single mention of Middle Eastern men. I have no doubt that there are plenty that feel this way, but it's not on that page.
I honestly consider myself more a libertarian than liberal. Certainly I'm not the latest concoction of the term "conservative". I've voted for various sides, based on who I perceived to be the best person for the office at that time. However, if I were to take the information as provided, yes, I'd have a problem with my fellow law abiding citizens being handled this way. The woman can't even go see her father.
By the logic we are to gather from this, acknowledging that there is usually another side to a story, no one should be flying. Anti-war activists (could be helping the other side), liberals (the Unibomber and those crackpots just can't see the picture), and conservatives for that matter (McVeigh being a typical example). Pretty much anyone who's ever voiced an opinion. Well, maybe even swing voters. How can you trust someone who refuses to take sides? Totally unpredictable.
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:24 AM
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<You liberals who can't see the picture in front of your turned-up noses deserve to have been on one of those 9/11 flights.>
I would undoubtedly disagree with Wayne's politics and probably much of what he believes in, but I would never wish him dead.
I'm appalled at this remark!
I would undoubtedly disagree with Wayne's politics and probably much of what he believes in, but I would never wish him dead.
I'm appalled at this remark!
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:26 AM
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AAFrequentFlyer, balancing freedom and security is always a tough task. And it is always easy and inviting to bad mouth things when you are not charged with any responsibility for it.
Your view of what freedoms we have given up does not match reality. Getting all crazy and blowing things out of proportion turns people off to your concerns. You make it seems as if stormtroopers were dragging thousands of innocent people off to jail. You know that is not true.
Fact facts: There is a good reason for the vast majority of people wanting more and not less security measures. If things were REALLY as bad as you seem to think, there would be more people on your upset about the current situation.
Thinking that they are all dumb, blind or sheep doesn't make it so.
Your view of what freedoms we have given up does not match reality. Getting all crazy and blowing things out of proportion turns people off to your concerns. You make it seems as if stormtroopers were dragging thousands of innocent people off to jail. You know that is not true.
Fact facts: There is a good reason for the vast majority of people wanting more and not less security measures. If things were REALLY as bad as you seem to think, there would be more people on your upset about the current situation.
Thinking that they are all dumb, blind or sheep doesn't make it so.
