dear tedgale,
A gentleman named Shelley said :
Fear not for the future, weep not for the past.
Regrets are a waste of time darlin, look forward! Best regards to you and your wife.

John, even better!! Imitation of Christ LOL Yes, very 6 degrees!

Scarlett, how much have you imbibed this afternoon?... your response is covering two separate threads! (tedgale is on the 'wine' one, thingorgius is on this one)...:)

LOL, travelnut, believe it or not, iced tea for me tonight..I just got confused.
Sorry ((F))

It's not rude to decline if only wine is offered.

Now, if it's offered with chocolates it's a different case ;)

S, no apology necessary - I just couldn't resist razzin' you... iced tea for me while I go hit the treadmill, then wine to get me through the 2-hour AmzRace finale. ciao!

I think finding a glass full of ICE (ice tea) in a restaurant in Europe would be the trickiest thing mentioned so far in this discussion.

Scarleet : How many times and on how many threads have you posted your sweet, thoughtful response? I'm flattered but....

On the main question -- about perceived rudeness if declining wine:

This is simply not an issue anymore.

So many people do not drink -- or choose not to drink on a particular occasion. Nobody cares. Nobody notices.

I used to hate it that my parents did not drink. (My father used to say he had his last drink on V-J Day, when 2 fellow army officers held him down and MADE him drink champagne)

I thought people would think them rubes, or recovering somethings or whatever.

Now we all just do what we feel like -- tipple or, more usually among the young, decline.

The ritualistic, determined drinkers are the minority.

Even in France.

BTW: Who was the author of The Imitation of Christ??

St Augustine??

I recall it had a tremendous vogue in the Edwardian era.

The Economist is a good information source, but it is largely written for a business-travel crowd. Because business dinner often involves some wine, it is an issue of being a gracious guest not to decline. However, if you don't want wine, be gracious and say "no,thank you" but recognize that your hosts are trying to please. However, neither my husband nor I have had any problem with this when we have declined. (We both drink wine everyday at dinner, but not usually at lunch.)

I have to admit that I am a subscriber to the Economist, but I THINK there is an option to access the current web page through free registration. I THINK the travel information might be available that way (It's difficult for me to tell -- "I'm in.") However, it really only covers a limited number of major cities, but the info can be useful.

When you are dining on your own, the waiter (1) may be perturbed that his tip won't be higher (unprofessional); (2) feeling superior that tourists don't know how to enjoy the pleasures of life (unprofessional,) (3) do his/her profsesional best and not really care exceot to serve you well, (4) even France is becoming increasingly aware of problem alcoholics, so it is not a problemm, and/or (5) fill in any number of other explanations. Do as you will, as long as you are gracious. As others have mentioned, ordering something to drink, even if it is bottled water, is usually okay.

It's also less of an issue at lunch than dinner, and less of an issue at casual places than higher-end places (i.e. an attitude of, "Why did you come if you didn't want to really enjoy the evening? Kind of like if you only order one course, not three or more, at a fine dining place.)

FYI: decent (not fabulous) wines in boxes are much more accepted in other parts of the world than the U.S. This is often how "everyday" wine consumption happens in other parts of the world (I've seen a few 'fridges o various continents.) It really does keep better, just as screw tops do a better job than corks for preserving freshness. There is an image problem mostly in the U.S. Again, I'm not saying it is the best stuff on the market, but better than boxed wine's reputation (yes, I drink wine every day, and pretty decent stuff at that, but no boxed wines. The local good wine shops concur that image is the real problem with stocking it.) An article in the New York Times a few weeks ago had a good article about this issue.

Caveat: in some parts of the world it is more of an insult to the host to decline what is offered. Japan is a prime example.

Imitation of Christ--by the Psychedelic Furs.

Oh, I'm sorry, is that not what you were thinking of???

Hmm, I feel as if I've already been drinking lots of wine. And it's only 5 in SF.

Thomas a Kempis -- quick google search. 15th century.

Personally the only time I was insulted was when I had a dinner party and we asked one guest which wine she would prefer and with arched eyebrow and pursed mouth received the answer "if you don't have some decent champagne to serve I will have NOTHING!" Ouch, that was rude. And no we did not have champagne, so I poured her some kind of bottled water, which was not touched either.

I would never feel that I had to order or to drink wine if I, for whatever reason, did not want any. If someone else had a problem with that it would remain their problem.

However, I never refuse a glass of wine, LOL.

Loveitaly: Incredible!

Hand auf herz, is that a true story??? What a skanky thing to say!

I hope you never asked her back!

Hi tedgale, invite her back? Noooooo, LOL. And do believe she has always wondered why. I was so stunned at the time. BTW we had a beautiful collection of wine to serve. Oh well, her loss and all the more for the rest of us. Also, no shock here right, it gave the rest of us something to laugh about the next time we all got together. Take good care.

Hi--I think you are being needlessly concerned, no matter what the article might say. It is never rude to decline something that someone is trying to sell you. A waiter is an employee. He is not *offering* you anything, merely asking if you wish to purchase wine.

Oh yes, forgot my question:

If those boxed wines don't let the air/oxygen in and this is supposed to allow the wine to keep better,

well, then, what happened to the theory of "letting the wine breathe"? Do all boxed wines hold their breath?

Good question! I think wine oxidises after a few days and being open to the air hurries the process. The Yankee says it can be corked and put in the fridge to slow the process, but our wine bottles rarely sit long enough to go bad :)
We have this collection of wine decanters. I picture someone having a fine collection of wine boxes on the table lol.

easy, the air changes the wine. So you open red wine and let it breathe and drink it. The changes, however, continue and at some point they have a detrimental effect on the wine.

(Oh lordy, please all you wine fanatics, don't be too hard on me.)

Remember this?

&quot;<i>“A bottle of wine is actually alive. It’s constantly evolving and gaining complexity, until it peaks and begins its steady, inevitable decline. And it tastes so f---ing good.”</i>

Hi all,

Wow, I had no clue I would get this many responses.

I also had no clue that Ice-Tea was not a popular item in Paris.

I guess my husband and I will stick with bottled water.