rookie train question
 

We will be traveling to Europe. Beginning in rome and ending in paris.

Trying to figure best cost for transportation. If i buy a eurail pass, will that cover most trains, including the one that runs throught 5 terre? I know i may incur extra costs for reserving seats etx. How much and how often will i have to do that?
Traveling in july/august and beginging to look at which way to go with tickets.

I don't know what your plans are but Eurail passes don't actually pay off all that often, compared to buying individual tickets (especially if you buy them direct from the country's rail system).

In all likelihood it will be a lot cheaper to buy point-to-point tickets. Trains in Italy don't cost a lot. You can price out both and do a comparison.

Without knowing your entire itinerary, it would be difficult to judge if a rail pass would be best for you. In Italy, only the slowest trains, designated R, would not require extra fees for reservations (and standing in line to place the reservations).

You can try pricing your itinerary at Railsaver.com, adding all your destinations. Choose the Preference "If less expensive" to see the most economical deal. You can switch between the different preferences to see the rail pass options without have to re-input your destinations.

I just tried Rome to Pisa to Paris. For the "If most convenient" preference, it suggested a railpass for a total cost of $318. For the "If less expensive" option, it suggested city-to-city tickets for each leg, for a total cost of $190.

Thanks. We are still working on the intinerary so i will definitley do a comparison. But as I was looking through information I realized i really didnt know which trains the passes covered.

You may find this article helpful:

http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/howrailworks.htm

As a general rule, all the trains run by a COUNTRY's NATIONAL rail system will be covered by passes. The notable exceptions are trains run by private rail companies such as those in parts of Switzerland and in France. For your purposes and based on the info you have already given us, a pass would probably work for you BUT

passes do not always cover the cost of any necessary seat reservations and seat reservations aren't always necessary..depends on the train and the timing.

passes are more economical the MORE you use them which is why you'll want to compare the costs of point-to-point tickets in your case.

Rail passes also don;t cover overnight sleeper trains (many of which have only sleepers and not seats). For those you need to pay the cost of the berths you use - price depending on how many people you are/want to share a compartment with.

I believe that rail passes are good if you plan to do a lot of travelling between and within countries in a short period of time. If you plan to visit only a few cities it would be better to buy point-to-point tickets.

Many times it's cheaper/faster to fly on one of the budget airlines.
www.whichbudget.com

Being as you are a train newbie in Europe http://tinyurl.com/eym5b will help you.

For specific information on tickets and passes go to
http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/. Call them up. Byron or Linda can help you.

You would not in any case, if just traveling in France and Italy consider the classic Eurailpass but a 2-country France and Italy railpass. But it depends on how many times you will take the train and where.

I don't know what your plans are but Eurail passes don't actually pay off all that often, compared to buying individual tickets (especially if you buy them direct from the country's rail system).>

this defies my 100 plus railpass trips where my pass has always paid off handsomely - if you are taking several train trips in more than one country the pass almost always will pay off

Plus folks often compare the online discounted tickets with a pass - a pass offers fully flexible tickets to hop any train anytime (in most but not all countries so it depends on where you go) and full fare tickets can be ridiculously expensive - like $130 in 2nd class just between Frankurt and Berlin i recall looking up recently.

And a pass if over 25 is also first class - so making the statement I don't know what your plans are but Eurail passes don't actually pay off all that often, compared to buying individual tickets (especially if you buy them direct from the country's rail system).

So to say a first-class pass vs first-class tickets rarely pays off is just misinformation IMO - a few full-fare first-class tickets can make a pass payoff.

The Fodor's mantra - railpasses are always a waste of money - say something that is not backed up by facts enough and folks will believe it .... and repeat it.

I can tell you that when I have priced out a pass vs tickets it has maybe once been worthwhile to get the pass. Now perhaps it is more accurate to say "if you want to go first class, and if it's important to you to have flexibility in when you go, and if you will be traveling on multiple days in a short period of time, then there's a good chance a pass will make sense for you" but frankly those things are rarely true for me, and I don't assume they are true for the OP.

I don't see how you can even have this discussion until a person knows exactly how many times they will be using the train, and where they will be going. Once that's nailed down it's simple math, which is better... right?

You also have to factor why some get/recommend passes. Some folks think riding trains is one of the major purposes of European travel - the journey is almost as important as the destination.

Others think taking the best/cheapest mode for each leg makes more sense - being someplace is more important than how one gets there.

For a lot of itineraries, a combo of some trains, some planes and maybe some buses makes more sense time and money-wise. That is another reason passes aren't always the best option.

It's very unlikely a pass will be economical for Italy. The cheapest France/Italy pass is $270 for 4 days or $67.50 per day. The trains on the Cinque Terre are 1.40€ (no reservations allowed on these trains). You would have to make 39 trips in one day on those trains to equal $67. A 1 1/2 hour flight on Easy Jet from Pisa (or Venice)to Paris is 35-50€ for random dates in July. A train would take 10+ hours and a pass would not include seats or sleeping accommodations.

>>suze on May 28, 10 at 11:05pm
I don't see how you can even have this discussion until a person knows exactly how many times they will be using the train, and where they will be going. Once that's nailed down it's simple math, which is better... right?<<<

The OP has posted a rough itinerary on another thread. It's not just simple math as the OP is traveling with children and will qualify for famiglia discount in Italy and passes can't pass along those savings. In Italy, most trains (all, but the slow R trains) require seat reservations in addition to the cost of the pass
http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...003f16f90aRCRD

Rick Steves has a pretty good list for trains that require a supplement with a pass and prices.
http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/pdfs/reservations.pdf

The trains on the Cinque Terre are 1.40€ (no reservations allowed on these trains). You would have to make 39 trips in one day on those trains to equal $67>

DUH of course you would not use one of your flexipass days on a few euro train ride - the pass gives a certain number of unlimited travel days over a 2-month period - you would not use one for such dirt-cheap trains so that comment is really irrelevant if not misleading.

Same as you would not use it on some lines of the Paris metro that honor passes, etc.

You have to look at your longish train rides - such as overnight trains to and from Paris, etc.

thanks kybourbon, didn't realize this had been an ongoing discussion!

me either

<It's very unlikely a pass will be economical for Italy.>

What about a first-class train trip like so:

Rome
Florence
Venice
Milan
Nice
Avignon
Paris

A 3-week trip overall - are you saying that a first-class France-Italy railpass would be economical for that trip - if so i'd love to see the price comparisons and will do that later - you could be right but i suspect a first-class France-Italy railpass to be very economical over that not usual itinerary in France and Italy.

We'll see if the Fodor's mantra a railpass is always a waste of money is true in this case as kybourbon just said above.

I'd take my advice about rail passes from the posters here who have actually used them extensively. I agree with Palenque, I've seen so many times people repeat "oh it will never pay off" as an almost knee-jerk response to the words "rail pass".

I still say it sure helps to have at least a somewhat confirmed itinerary, to try to work the math on this question.

PQ - I'm not sure what your problem is, but creating random itineraries on threads that you think might break even with a pass is not helpful to the OP. The itinerary you created:

A. Is to cities the OP isn't traveling.
B. Is for 3 weeks and the OP is only traveling for 12-17 (and stated if 17 days that included travel to and from home country).
C. Is for a pass that is not applicable to the OP (OP is traveling with 7 kids and youth passes are only 2nd class).

You don't seriously suggest the OP should spend 6 of their 12 (possibly 15) vacation days on trains with 7 kids? Should they really visit 7 cities in 12 days?

suze - I think the OP should listen to the people that regularly travel to Italy, use these trains, know the prices and discounts. We have no financial interest in promoting passes, only in giving accurate advice. I doubt anyone on this thread (except PQ) would even suggest 1st cl on these trains. Why? Because 2nd is fine and most treks between cities in Italy are under 2 hours. Additionally, passes don't include seat reservations which are mandatory in Italy on all but the slow R trains. That adds 10€ per person every time you train. The pass also doesn't include any sleeping accommodations on overnight trains which can add up (especially for a group of 9). A pass can't give you the family discount of 20% either that's offered by Trenitalia which the OP would qualify for.

I can create a typical tourist itinerary of Rome/Florence, Florence/Venice, Venice/Milan would cost an adult in this family 93€ ($113)on the fastest trains. The cheapest rail pass (Italy only as are much more expensive) for an adult in this family for this route would cost $176 (3 day pass) plus they would still need to buy 3 seat reservations of 10€ ($12.30)each which adds $36.90 to the pass making it cost $212.90. One adult in this family on this itinerary would save $99 by not purchasing a pass. That adds up when you are traveling with 9 people. The family could use the $99 savings to fly to Paris (only 35-50€). The cheapest France/Italy pass is $270 for 4 days and you would still need to add 4 days of seat costs.

I doubt anyone on this thread (except PQ) would even suggest 1st cl on these trains.>

yes indeedy - four decades of traveling on Italian trains tells me that, for the relatively small price differential, first class is far superior to 2nd class, which is OK on the Eurostar trains

but in first class you have 25% fewer seats in the same train-car space and these seats are also less likely to be filled - more room for luggage, etc.

I only mention passes when they are viable for a certain trip - now i have not followed the other thread where the OP has changed, etc. and i do not say railpasses are always the best way - but for a typical Italian trip, as i showed a few weeks ago, they certainly can be cost effective. Why the mantra 'railpasses in Italy are rarely cost effective' is repeated so much is a mystery to me.

and in kybourobon's last paragraph if the adult were to be returning to Rome from Milan then the pass may be in play - the more days of travel the cheaper per day the pass - about $20 per extra day i believe - so if the party were also going to Naples and back, etc. Well my point is you cannot make blanket statements that bourbon has done repeatedly in the past that 'railpasses rarely make sense in Italy' as that has to be looked at case to case and not generalized.

It gets me when folks say they just cannot understand why anyone would go first class on Italian trains - that 2nd class is just as good

Q - then why do many many folks - Italians - pay extra for first class - are they total idiots?

Q - then why do many many folks - Italians - pay extra for first class - are they total idiots?

Two words:
Expense account.

Well i have ridden first-class on Italian trains for decades and though, like in any country, there are the suit-and-tie-and briefcase brigade on account there are also lots of plain ole Italians riding first class simply because it is in many ways a lot more leisurely than second-class.

And anyone who says it is not tells me they have not ridden that many trains in Italy IMO.

kybourbon~ While my experience is limited to a couple trips I saw a BIG difference between 1st and 2nd class on Italian trains. Starting, but not limited to, with how crowded the cars normally are.

suze - I think the OP should listen to the people that regularly travel to Italy, use these trains, know the prices and discounts. We have no financial interest in promoting passes, only in giving accurate advice.>

And all that applies to me as well - four decades of traveling on Italian trains and despite your suggestion that i profit from Italian railpasses, which i also regularly advise against if the itinerary don't warrant one, but my aim - after four decades of being a professional travel writer specializing in European trains, is like you to give the best advice possible and that includes correcting misinformation that some 'experts' keep posting about railpasses never being a good deal in Italy, etc.

<I doubt anyone on this thread (except PQ) would even suggest 1st cl on these trains> -
read Suze's post above - and even though you would automatically discredit her because she has only traveled a few times on trains to me that is the advice - of a typical novice traveler - that others planning a trip should take to heart.
Again i say anyone who says there is no difference between first and second class simply IMO has not ridden in both classes very much.

Well, i think basically it is a math question. Now that we have more specifics we will need to sit down and figure it all out. But the info above was great and a number of sites that were listed i did not have. so that will all help a ton.

Thanks.

jerrylee - In the past reservations for seats on trains in Italy weren't required so trains could be crowded as suze stated (don't know what type of train she used). That meant people could be standing in the aisles. This is no longer the case except on the slow R trains as now you must have a seat. Here are pictures of 1st and 2nd class on the Italian trains. The fast trains (AV/ES) are what most tourists use between the major cities. The ICPlus/IC trains are used less frequently by tourists as travel time is longer (cost less and can be a bargain on some routes), but there are pictures of those also. You can decide whether it's worth it to spend an extra 20€ (typical price difference Rome/Florence, Florence/Venice, etc.)per person per train for 1st for such short rides.

http://www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.h...0trains%20like

You didn't state the age of your children so some might be free. Your family will certainly qualify for the family discount as long as one child is 12 or under, but with such a large group, I would purchase all the routes that require seats upon arrival in Italy. It's hard to get exact prices for your group on Trenitalia as it will only allow you to enter a total number of five travelers. The family discount requires two adults traveling with children, but they will discount the whole group or at least I've been given the discount for my entire group in the past. You can enter the two adults and 3 kids for the family discount and figure the other kids separately, but that won't reflect the extra 20% you will probably get for them. Here's the age breakdown for kid's discounts.

>>> Ticket prices for youngsters and children
Children under the age of 4 travel free of charge in both first and second class but they do not have the right to a seat. Children still under 12 (considered as the day after the birthday), can occupy a seat, travelling for 50% off and 30% off in WL and CC. <<<<