Rome or Stockholm - PLEASE HELP ME MAKE UP MY MIND
 

I have the opportunity to exchange homes over Christmas 2014, and I have to choose between Stockholm and Rome. Tough!
On this trip my sister will be going with DD and me. This is her first experience of Europe, and I really want her to have a great time.

The apartment in Stockholm seems nice, bright and spacious. It is in Sodermalm, and it seems easy to navigate from there to the rest of the city. The apartment near Rome is in Ostia. This means a 30 minute train ride + a metro ride twice a day, most days. The Rome apartment is smaller, but it has a sea view.
The weather in Rome will not be as cold as in Sweden. In Stockholm snow may be a problem (slippery sidewalks?). Snow may also be a great experience (will it?)
Prices for food in both places seem to be more or less the same, but coffee in a restaurant AND WINE in Sweden is much more expensive. Public transport in Stockholm also seem to be double the price than in Rome.
We will have 10 days, so will want to make a few day trips. Within an hour from Rome there are lovely small towns (right?). Within half an hour from Stockholm nature seems extremely beautiful. How much will we be able to enjoy this in winter?
I have been to Rome before, and know that you will not exhaust its treasures in ten trips. Does 10 days in Stockholm make sense?
We enjoy nature, architecture, history, food, art. Not interested in shopping or nightlife.
Please - those of you who know and enjoy both these cities, what do you think? What have I not considered?
Thanks!

I think the weather should be the deciding factor. Do you both live someplace where you have a real winter (ice, sleet, snow and temps in the 20s during the day and perhaps zero - farenheit, not centigrade at night)? If not, will you need a new wardrobe for Stockholm (we hired a woman from Arkansas in our office several years ago and she needed a whole new wardrobe for winter - the most she had was a raincoat with a liner - useless in winter).

Obviously Rome will be less cold (but can get snow in the winter - although rare). My concern there would be that trek to and from Ostia Antica. Rome has way more to see and do - but there is no way I would stay anyplace but in central Rome. All that travel in winter - when days are very short and dreary - would be too much.

If you can't find a place in central Rome I would definitely go for Stockholm - which does have a lot to see and do - as well as several possible day trips. But I like winter/cold, am used to dealing it for months every year and wouldn't have to spend quite a few hundreds on basics of a new wardrobe.

I would be surprised if food prices were the same (or anything else).

>>>Within an hour from Rome there are lovely small towns (right?).<<<

Yes. You can head north to Orvieto (8€ one way). East to Tivoli. South to Naples. Florence is only 90 minutes by train.

If you choose Rome, a 7 day transport pass for Rome is 24€. It covers Rome to the stops listed in red (it covers the entire Rome/Lido train route). The pass includes buses, trams, metro also.

http://atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=4

It should also cover any buses within Ostia.

http://atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=7

The pass covers zone A. There are other weekly passes you can get to cover various additional zones or all of Lazio, but they can cost quite a bit more and you might not use it.
Zones:
http://www.atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=1643

You don't have to go all the way in to Rome Termini to reach some places in Rome you might enjoy. You can take the Rome/Lido train to Piramide/Ostiense and switch to the tram (#3) to Trastevere (end line is Piazza Venezia). You can also catch the metro at Piramide.

Trams:
http://atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=5

Cotral may operate the buses in Ostia (ATAC is Rome) so you may need to check their website, but they are part of the pass.

Thanks nytraveller! No, I should have said, we are NOT used to cold. We currently live in Dubai where it is at this moment at 6.30pm, 39C (feels like 46). We did go to Prague for Christmas last year, but temps were hovering around 5 - 9C during the day. The people of Prague complained that it was not really cold. For that trip we did buy thick shoes / warm jackets / etc. But yes, Stockholm seems to be in a different category of cold. We are doing this as part of a home exchange - the people from Italy who want to exchange with us live in Ostia. The previous time we went to Rome, we stayed very near Piazza Navona, and it was lovely. That is why I feel a bit negative about Ostia. But, otoh, I am a bit scared of the weather in Stockholm!!

And thank you kybourbon - this will help a lot!

I've been to Stockholm in 2013 and was shocked by the food prices there. A sandwich, 2 juices and a small piece of pie cost $35. I bet in Rome you could get the same thing for under $12.

I have never been to Italy (going in 2015 though!) so can't compare the 2, but I would go with Stockholm even if prices are higher since you've never been there. I can just imagine how beautiful the city will be under a blanket of snow........

Things we enjoyed in Stockholm: The ABBA museum, it was very interactive... the VASA museum, the changing of the guard, the shopping, hanging out in Gamla Stan, the ice bar, and the overall feel of the city. There is also a free bus you can take to get to the flagship IKEA store a bit outside the city.

I was in Stockholm from 5 to 9 October 2013 and the weather then was around 5 Celcius. Some mornings there was even frost.

I'm not sure how low they get during December though, you might look at the historical weather data.

Dubai is not exactly cheap, so food prices in Stockholm will not be a shock to a UAE resident. Wine is not particularly expensive at the state run shops called Systembolaget. You can buy a number in the $15 dollar range, which is what I would pay minimum at home anyway. There are alot of supermarkets where you buy food, eg Hemköp which is nicer than Netto, so easy to cater for yourself. In cold countries, they are geared up for winter, so buildings are wonderfully warm and the Scandinavians have a way of making winter cosy. The archipelago is beautiful in winter, if there is snow and a sunny day, that is.

I was in Sweden last December, there was heavy snowfall at the beginning of the month but by Christmas it was quite mild. This year who knows. If you had clothes for a Prague winter, they will be fine for a Swedish winter. It's not a different category of cold, as continental Europe can have very low winter temps. Days are short, it starts to get dark about 3pm.

I can see why it's a tough choice! Both are beautiful cities but in quite different ways.

The good news is, it's hard to go wrong either way.

I would be most concerned with the very short days and the cold.

We found Stockholm quite expensive (though very high standard/quality of living) when we went several years ago--however, self-catering with the stores described by Odin could be quite reasonable.

I have not stayed around Ostia and that does level it out a bit.

In your shoes I might go for Rome, buy the pass ky describes, enjoy a leisurely espresso and breakfast and hop on into town most days. On the up side, you've been there and could guide your family around. On the down side, you've been there, and Stockholm is "new" for all of you.

Is your sister an experienced traveler or otherwise able to roll with the punches? Stockholm is an "easy" intro to Europe; it was our sons' first trip to Europe and they had a great time.

Last thought is, are any of you religious? I'm thinking of which place experiencing Christmas might work for you--in terms of attending religious services. I imagine Rome cooks up some festive events in that way, though Odin mentions a festive Christmas as well.

You know your family; it sounds like if you have the "cold weather" prep you could do well in either spot.

One thing to consider is the average hours of daylight in December for each city: 6:13 for Stockholm, 9:10 for Rome.

http://www.stockholm.climatemps.com/sunlight.php
http://www.rome.climatemps.com/sunlight.php

Having been to both cities (not in winter) I would go to Rome. Find cold weather unpleasant (exception - skiing).

Been to both places and reading all that has been said.....
I would go to Rome and see all I could there
that is of specific interest to you.. and then
see the surrounding areas.

walking around in a warmer climate is better than walking around in a colder climate and you will have more daylight hours in Rome also.

Yes Stockholm is nice but you could get a blast of winter weather at Christmas.
By 5:30 PM it starts getting dark.

I would think Stockholm would be dark well before 5:30 in December. The very limited daylight would push me towards Italy.

according to this site (http://www.cmpsolv.com/cgi-bin/sunse...hite&datefmt=0) sunrise in Dec is around 9am and set is 14;45. You will have very few hours to actually sight see or take day trips. But considering where you are coming from, isn't it warm and sunny with long days much of the year? In that case it might be fun to experience Sweden on the darkest days of the year.

Personally I'd go for Rome. I don't think day trips from Stockholm will be very good at that time of year.

Prices of food will be MUCH higher in Stockholm then in Rome.

I reminded myself that Rome could just as well be wet, nasty and cold during December. Did it once, never again..all subsequent travel to Roma was in spring or fall. These familiarization pics were taken in late summer, but the country side, the archilpelagos, could be intriguing in December. Walking the well lit, decorated streets of town and Gamla Stan after dark , bundled up, would be a welcome experience, especially coming from Dubai.

https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/Stockholm#

We spent a week in Rome over NYE in 2021/2012 and had great weather - probably lucky!

You can see our pics here https://www.flickr.com/photos/pug_gi...7637218569466/

It's not that Stockholm is in a different category. That is regular winter weather in northern areas. The people in Prague were right - what you had wa warm for winter there - or here in NYC for that matter.

I personally can;t deal with heat - if it goes higher than 72 (22 celsius) all I want to do is sit in an AC room - or under a nice shady tree with a cold drink - and not move. But I love winter/cold weather.

It's true the days will be shorter in Stockholm. But there is a ton to do indoors - and also day trips. I would have a look at the options in some guidebooks and see what you think.

Perhaps I 'm also leaning in that direction since I have been to Stockholm only twice - and there was a lot more I wanted to see/do. And while there is always a lot to see/do in Rome I've been there 11 or 12 times - so not as fascinating.

Nice pictures tower, but they are summer pictures.

I am not a holidaying cold weather person, but that is me.

I love Stockholm but would not want to be bundled up walking Gamla Stan.

Coming from Dubai could have the reverse effect...getting used to the cold.

I agree about the getting dark much earlier than 5:30 PM.

>>>Nice pictures tower, but they are summer pictures.<<<

Percy..nice hearing fom you. I made that quite clear in my commentary(and certainly obvious by the pix). I'd put it all off until spring and then choose either location. We once covered Stockholm, Finland, Norway and Denmark in late summer...still needed sweaters from time to time. Being a Canadian, you know your winter clime all too well. Stay well...
stu

I've spent Xmas/New Year's in Rome, and another time was there in February. I've not been to Stockholm, but I'd definitely pick southern Europe in winter for more daylight and possibly warmer weather.

Hi tower ,nice to see your post also.
I once tried signing into piscasweb but was "going around in circles! "

Been to Stockholm twice both times in the middle of summer.

Like that "ladies of Sweden" picture.


Hope you are keeping well. I have always enjoyed you postings.

Oops ! sorry kovsie for hijacking the thread.

Percy: you are most welcome - I enjoy the diversion!
tower: I have already paged though your pictures while trying to work out what Stockholm is about. I also love the 'ladies of Sweden", especially the one on the left wearing sneakers and her hat with the pink roses!
jamikens: as always, your pictures are works of art. Thanks for reminding me how special the small streets of Rome are. One of the little streets near Piazza Navona has this: boutique, boutique, jewelry store, workshop for motorcycle repairs with men of all ages smoking and discussing, then a gelateria. The owner of the motorcycle place had a 3-legged dog that used to beg at the gelateria. I was so often amused by this, but I do not have a picture.
annw: no, my sister is not an experienced traveller. Coming from South Africa and paying with South African Rands makes this a biggie for her. But she is a really nice person, and she can roll with the punches.
leely2: The short dark days did not particularly bother me in Prague. I remember the sun setting red over the river by 3pm on Christmas Day. But I was always aware of the cold. Even if you are dressed warmly and your body is not cold, how do you keep your face from painfully freezing?
nytraveller: I was leaning towards Rome in spite of the commuting problem, because it is less expensive and not as cold. Then I started paging through the guidebooks for Sweden ...

This is the site that made me think that food will be +- the same price in these cities. I was thinking mostly about self-catering:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...aly&city2=Rome

Sorry, I posted the above too soon. Still wanted to add: I was obviously wrong - Stockholm is consistently more expensive.

According to the link, it is $14 more expensive in Stockholm than Rome for a meal for 2, midrange restaurant and 50-60c more expensive for a 33cl bottle of coke, although in Netto you can buy 2 litres of coke for just over $2. No one in their right mind buys bottled water in Sweden, when the stuff that comes out of your kitchen tap is as good. Some of the differences are small in actual money, although coffee is pricey. I can understand price concerns if you are going to be there for a long time, but it's only for 10 days. The overall difference in grocery prices, according to the link, is 11.9% lower in Rome than Stockholm & I doubt it is even that, with discount supermarkets like Netto/Aldi etc. It's not very much.

If price is the deciding factor, go to Rome, otherwise work out which city has the most appeal and decide based on that because cost wise the difference is small and weatherwise, it could go either way.

At least the link shows that McDonalds is not $20+ in Stockholm.

Thanks Odin, for putting this in perspective!

<<I would think Stockholm would be dark well before 5:30 in December. The very limited daylight would push me towards Italy.>>

Stockholm will be full night by 5:30 pm. It is well north of Gdansk and by 3:30 pm in December, Gdansk has its night.

I don't think the link info is accurate. A fast casual hamburger meal at the American chain restaurant Chili's costs more than $20 in Stockholm without appetizers, drinks, or other extras. And the likelihood is that you will not eat full Italian dinners (salad, pasta dish, THEN entree) that would cost significant money.

Rome.

I just got back from Stockholm. It was great. But it would be a very different experience in December. Rome can get pretty cold in winter and even snow, but I think Stockholm will be in a whole other league.

Thanks so much everybody, for your input and support! As always, it is highly appreciated.

My decision is ... (drumroll & trumpets) ... ROME.

I will still go to Stockholm - perhaps even in winter - but on my own, when I do not feel responsible for the comfort level of others.

<<I don't <i>think</i> the link info is accurate.>>

The link is spot on. I was surprised and I think it is a very good link to have. I go to Sweden several times a year. I'm going again next week. I'll be there at Christmas. I was there last December. I rented an apartment for 14 months a year or so ago. I (we) own a house in Sweden. Shopping in supermarkets is what I do. I know them all, Hemköp (bit more upmarket), Willys, Netto(least favourite), Coop. You can click on these links to see supermarket prices. $20 is not bad for a burger in a casual restaurant. That equates to £12/EUR15 which is slightly more than I would pay at Gourmet Burger Kitchen in the UK which ranges from £7 to about £12. Alcohol is deliberately expensive in an effort to discourage drinking and it can only be bought in government shop called Systembolaget. You don't pay 20-30% tip as you do in the US.

However, if you live in South Africa where the Rand is very weak at the moment, everywhere will be hugely expensive for them, so the small price differences will make a big impact to their budget. So Rome will definitely be the right decision. At Spar in ZA you can buy a cappuccino to take out for about $2.50 but in Sweden this would set you back about $8.

https://www.willys.se/
http://www.netto.se/Pages/Start.aspx
https://www.hemkop.se/

<<Rome can get pretty cold in winter and even snow, but I <i>think</i> Stockholm will be in a whole other league.>> It's in the same league as many other cities in winter, eg Prague, Krakow, Moscow, New York etc. It is not Siberia or within the Arctic Circle. If you own a winter coat, hat, gloves and some boots you will be ok. I've been to Milan in winter and it was extremely cold and damp but I don't know Rome at all. Stockholm is beautiful in the winter, roads and pavements are cleared of snow and has a cozy atmosphere as only Scandinavia can create during the cold crisp dark short days of winter. And nobody does Christmas better.

thanks Odin, it is NICE to have somebody who knows what he (she?) is talking about!.

You know about SA (and about SPAR!!), so you will understand that I have never ever seen real snow, and that having a white Christmas is on my bucket list. That is why this was / still is a tough choice for me. I still believe that it will not be that expensive if we do most meals self-catering, using the supermarkets that you recommend. What you are saying about the sidewalks being cleared is so positive. Last year in Prague it did not snow, but still the sidewalks tended to be quite slippery in places. Coming from Dubai with its relentless sun, I enjoy cold and grey days. I do not care about the short days, with the streets well lit the evenings are special.

Why do I choose Rome?
1 This may be a once-in-a-lifetime trip for the family. If you could see only one place in Europe, it is perhaps better to experience a few well-known landmarks.
2 The poor struggling SA Rand. But, as you rightly point out, it is only a 10% difference. If you add this to the total budget of plane tickets, etc, it will not make a substantial difference. It just feels very expensive.

In Dubai I pay a fortune for wine. When I started out here, I realized I should either stop enjoying wine or accept the ridiculous prices. Now I just try to drink sloooowly.

"Nobody does Christmas better" -- yes that is what I have read ... I am again temped!

My promise to myself is to go to Sweden (and Denmark) next December.

kovsie,
I am coming late to the discussion and haven't read all the posts so sorry if this has been repeated or if you've decided.

But, my DD has stayed in Rome and is currently in Stockholm. I've never heard her more excited about an European city as she is with Stockholm. She absolutely loves it. She said it is beautiful beyond what she expected. I never heard her gush on about Rome in the same way (although she enjoyed her visit there).

kovsie,
I see you've decided on Rome. But sounds like you might go to Stockholm some other time. I am going to read this trip report I just noticed and thought you might be interested as well.

Stockholm Trip Report by piles_of__paper

O my, I show my ignorance in so many ways. I have now seen that 'Odin' is a male name, that may mean (amongst others) 'wealthy defender' ... Good name! Please ignore the 'she' above.

Have scanned through the thread again, and am gratified with the quality of info that you all have provided. I am often surprised by how many Fodorites are willing to spend time to guide a newbie on her way. Thanks yet again.

Congrats on your decision - Rome in December will be amazing!!

kovsie--excellent choice. I think Rome wins hands down at that time of year--or any other time of year.

ttt

I'm not sure why you are topping this thread. Are you reconsidering? Are you seeking other information, and if so, what?