tourvel

After two months of research, my husband and I have come up with our December honeymoon itinerary for Rome. It is part of a longer trip that begins with a week in Tuscany (haven't planned that part yet). Looking at it on paper, I am afraid we may be trying to do too much. Lots of walking-- but I tried to group stops together so we're not repeatedly cutting across town in the same day. What do you think? What cuts and/or substitutions would you make? (We are staying at the Marriott Grand Hotel Flora on the Villa Borghese/Via Veneto.)

Also, we are on a budget, so we are trying to maximize use of the 10€ combo ticket that gets you in to so many sites in Rome.

DAY ONE. SATURDAY.
Arrive in Rome by train (from Florence)around noon, check into hotel. Lunch.
2pm-4pm Colosseum (combo ticket)
4pm-5pm Santi Quattro Coronati
5pm-6pm San Clemente
6pm-7:45 Domus Aurea
8-10pm Dinner (at Hostaria Nerone?)

DAY TWO. SUNDAY.
9-10:30am Explore Spanish Steps area, then head west
10:30-11:30 See the Ludovisi sculpture collection in Palazzo Altemps/Museo Nazionale Romano (on the combo ticket)
11:30am-1pm Piazza Navona & Pantheon
1-2:30 Lunch (at Ristorante del Pallaro?)
3-5pm Area Sacra di Largo Argentina (free tour)
5-6pm Crypta Balbi Museum (combo ticket)
6pm Piazza Mattei/Tortoise Fountain
6:30 back to hotel, rest, dress for dinner 8pm our one big splurge dinner: Les Etoiles by the Vatican? Camponeschi at Piazza Farnese? Somewhere else?

DAY THREE. MONDAY.
10am-3pm Through Eternity Guided Tour of Vatican and St. Peter's (with break for lunch)
3:30-5:30 Castel Sant'Angelo
Dinner

DAY FOUR. TUESDAY.
9am-4pm Self-Guided Ancient Rome Walking Tour, as borrowed from http://www.frommers.com/destinations...064020033.html
We'll wander through the Forum (with a copy of ROME, PAST & PRESENT in hand), then up the Palatine Hill (on the combo ticket), and back down to admire the Arco di Constantino. Lunch nearby, then go through the Imperial Forums while we still have daylight.
4pm-5pm Mamertine Prison, Santa Maria in Aracoeli
5pm Piazza del Campidoglio (hopefully catch this around sunset)
5:15-6pm Il Gesu
6:15-7pm Santa Maria Sopra Minerva
7pm-7:30 Pantheon (after dark this time)
8pm Dinner (at Il Miraggio?)
10pm walk back to hotel by way of Piazza Colonna and Trevi Fountain

DAY FIVE. WEDNESDAY.
9-9:30am Sant'Ignazio di Loyola
9:30-10am admire Il Vittoriano in Piazza Venezia before catching the
10am-4pm Archeobus Tour of Via Appia, with stops at:
the Mouth of Truth
the Baths of Caracalla
Aurelian's City Wall
Church of Domine Quo Vadis
Lunch
Tomb of Cecilia Metella
Villa dei Quintili
Aquaduct
Catacombs of St. Callisto
Catacombs of St. Domitilla
then ride back into town
4:30-5:30 Capuchin Crypt (if it's open-- if not, then--)
4:30-5 Santa Maria della Vittoria
5-6pm Baths of Diocletian/Museo Nazionale Romano (skip this if the Crypt is open)
6-6:30 Santa Prassede
6:30-7pm Santa Maria Maggiore
7pm walk back by way of the Nymph Fountain and the Triton Fountain
8pm-10pm Our last dinner in Rome (where?)

We fly home on Thursday morning.

Advice? Suggestions? Is this too much?

got1tiel

wow. i havent seen a quarter of those those places in the same amount of time.but then again i didnt do any research on what was there to see beforehand. It doesnt sound unreasonable if you both dont get tired easily and use the metro/bus to get aorund fast.Metro is not good for stuff like pantheon/trevi/piazza navona/mouth of truth. I found these places quite hidden and wasted a lot of time trying to find them so study your map before you go.I think Vittoriano will need a bit more than 30min:time for photos at the base,climbing up hundreds of stairs,panting, admiring view at top,more photos,walking across top to see view from other side,going back down stairs. you might miss your bus. Hope you get good weather.
Sam

Mary_Fran

i think you're smart to plan your itinerary so carefully. However, I hope that you'll be flexible and feel free to cut out some things if you get tired. The important thing is to enjoy yourself and not to check off sights on your list.

tourvel

Yes, the weather is going to be a crapshoot. We live in Atlanta, and I read here on the boards the weather in Rome is comparable to ours. That means, in mid-December, we could enjoy sunny days with highs in the fifties, or we could suffer through rainy days with much colder temps. We are hoping for the former! If we get really rotten weather, we'll have to miss out on the Ancient Rome walking tour altogether.

Thanks for the tip about Il Vittoriano!

boatgirlhm

Since you asked....Way too busy. You might not even have time for gelato!!!

IdyllicItaly

I would skip the Domus Aurea and visit the Galleria Borghese instead. You buy reserved tickets for a certain entrance time. We took a guided Domus Aurea tour with a very well informed and capable guide in 2001 and I found that so much has been removed, you had to constantly use your imagination to see what it was like. There were some faint frescoes in some places. For a student of archeology, it might be fascinating.

But the Galleria Borghese is filled with treasures, from sculptures, to mosaics, to paintings, in a gem of a palazzo. The Galleria Borghese is stunning as the Domus Aurea must have once been.

Suzy Kane, http://www.idyllicitaly.com

Sue_xx_yy

I hesitate to say anything since you have obviously read a lot and planned hard.

For what it's worth: forget the minor museums/sites on the combo ticket and see only the stuff you really want to see. I understand the pressures of budget, but sightseeing is one area where I think you should forget about stretching your dollar and just enjoy. Remember, your time and energy have a dollar value as well (especially after you've forked out for airfare, hotel, and food.) Also, avoid wherever possible having to show up at a fixed time and place, especially in the middle of the day. Scheduled appointments are sometimes necessary for certain things, but boy can they freeze up your day.

Trust your instincts and leave some (at least a quarter, preferably more) of your day open and unplanned. Things will pop up to fill in the time - hunting for a coffee or a WC, windowshopping or people-watching, doing travel chores (e.g laundry, postcards, whatever.) Getting a little lost can be quite fun if you've allowed for it. And you probably will get a little lost from time to time.

Enjoy Rome.

JeanneB

Sue, you expressed my thoughts exactly. Having such a tight itinerary can lead one to dismiss spontaneous opportunities that will always pop up...sidewalk theater, an interesting shops, etc. Those little "surprises" can turn out to be what makes a trip special.

adrienne

You do have a very full itinerary. Don't feel that you have to see everything simply because it's on your itinerary. Allow a bit of flexibility for adjustments.

A couple of comments. See the Trevi fountain (I didn't notice it on your itinerary).

Move St. Ignatius church to one of the Pantheon days. It's quite close to the Pantheon (closer than to the Victor Emanual monument).

As another poster commented, book tickets to the Borghese Museum (reserve ahead on their web site). I've been twice and want to go back again, especially for the sculpture. Their web site shows photos of their major works.

Have a great trip and honeymoon.

ellenem

I've been in Rome the last few Thanksgivings (end of November). The sun has just about set by 5PM. The Forum is open until sunset and the attendants starts steering out visitors well before 5PM.

I would skip the Mamertine prison--little more than a small stone basement and only "attributed to" Paul and Peter, no verifiable data.

I agree with Sue--just because some sites are on the combo ticket, it doesn't mean they are worth visiting, especially if pressed for time. The combo ticket was developed to encourage visitors at less popular sites.

If the Capuchin Crypt is open, it won't take an hour to visit. (Perhaps you're including travel time?)

Yes, all this is doable. Just be ready to drop it all when you discover a special moment off your itinerary.

Parker

I'm very impressed with the amount of research you did prior to asking for help with your trip! I've been to Rome four times in the last six years, the last trip over Easter for 10 days, and I haven't see half of the sites on your list! I have seen some sites twice, either because I was going with someone who had not been to Rome before, or I didn't get enough out of the first trip and went a second time with a guide.

I've found that having a guide makes all the difference in the world at understanding what you're seeing and how it ties together with the art world, Roman rulers, and Vatican Popes at the time! My suggestion would be to pass on some of the sites in favor of a guided tour of the major sites.

For example, my first trip to the Colosseum and Forum was pretty much as you described in your plans. However, the next visit we had a guide and it was so much more enjoyable! Then, when we went to the Vatican, and finally the Borghese Gallery, it all tied together! It's so much better than wandering around with a book in your hand trying to find the buildings, etc. and understand the timing of the events.

My suggestion for your first afternoon is to wander to the sites that you can easily see during a leisurly walk around town: Spanish Steps, on to the Trevi Fountain, on to the Pantheon (along with Sant'Ignazio and Santa Maria Sopra Minerva), then on to the Piazza Navona, and finally to the Campo di Fiori. Dinner at Campo or head back to a restaurant near your hotel. This will give you a good feel for the Ancient City.

I'll cast my vote along with everyone else that it's great to do research and have a plan, as long as you're flexible. There were many things we tried to see/do on our trip in April only to get there and find out it's closed for one reason or another: A famous flea market (not held on Palm Sunday), hot air balloon flight (too windy), the Capuchin Crypt (closed again for repairs), etc.

I would also recommend buying a metro/bus pass. It's so easy to get around and very inexpensive!

Have a great trip! You'll love Roma!

Richard1148

Elizabeth - What is/where do you get the combo ticket you mention? You say you're on a budget but you're staying at the Marriott Grand Flora. Unless this is a wedding gift, I would be interested to know if you found a special rate?

strass

I have to say I've never planned a trip this way, with my itinerary mapped out down to quarter-hours! I do travel on a budget, but I find it easier to just make a list of the places I really want to see, and then have a rough idea of what to do each day: sites A and B in the morning on Monday, site C in the afternoon, etc. Maybe it's just a personality thing?

But I agree with the other posters--don't stress about sticking to your itinerary hour by hour; take time to wander down a cobblestoned side street, stop in a fabulous store or interesting church, and yes, eat lots of gelato!! Regardless, you're going to have a great trip...

(oh, and don't forget Trevi Fountain!)

tourvel

Thanks, everyone for the advice! The Trevi Fountain is definitely on the list-- I think it's at the end of the day on Tuesday (I've heard it's very pretty at night).

Good advice about the combo ticket thing. If I wouldn't go there anyway, why go there just because it's free?

As far as the budget is concerned, yes, the Hotel Grand Flora is a wedding gift (Marriott points from Dad). We are paying for the rest of the trip ourselves (airfare, the week in Tuscany, expenses, etc.) but we are VERY grateful to have such a luxurious place to stay in Rome. I had read elsewhere on the boards that the Flora was no longer accepting Points, but we called and asked anyway. So glad we did! They accept Points, but only for very specific dates (like this one week in mid-December, in our case). So we planned the rest of the trip around the availability at the Marriott, since it was pretty much the only way we could afford to include Rome on our honeymoon.

I am going to look over the schedule and cut a couple of the second rate museums and instead go to the Galleria Borghese. My husband is not crazy about "paintings on the walls," but since the visit is limited to two hours anyway, he may not mind so much. And I understand the Borghese is filled with amazing sculptures, too, which I think he may enjoy more than just paintings.

Thank you everybody for your advice. You are right-- making memories and enjoying ourselves is more important than checking sites off a list.

(But boy, I hope the Capuchin Crypt is open!)

Still open to any more thoughts and/or suggestions.

ParadiseLost

Weather, site closings (restorations or winter hours), transit strikes, late nights, etc could throw you off schedule, just be flexiable. DAY ONE: I would move the Colosseum to Day Four with the Roman Forum and Palatine.
DAY TWO: Just curious who is giving a 2hr tour of the Area Sacra di Largo Argentina? The Cat sanctuary people?
DAY THREE: Looks good.
DAY FOUR: That Frommers walk in the Roman Forum is out of date (many sites mentioned are now closed off), inaccurate/wrong and bypasses most of the sites. Use it but pick-up a 'Blue Guide Rome', it's the best all-round guide for the historical sites and museums. For more detail on the historical sites the 'Oxford Archaeological Guides-Rome' is the best.
The Imperial Forums are closed-off except for limited booked tours but these sites can be easily viewed from the sidewalk. But Trajan's Market and part of his Forum is open.
I would do the Roman Forum, Palatine Hill and Colosseum, then the Arch of Constantine, Imperial Forums all together on this day. And do the Mamertine Prison while in the Forum just in case it's closed later on, just go up the stairs behind the Arch of Septimius Severus to the 1st landing and it's a stone's throw away.
DAY FIVE: Did you read my tripreport on the Archeobus I posted here? I have read 2 recent accounts that the Archeobus now leaves from Termini?, you should call them when in Rome and to make reservations and check where they now depart from.
Also remember when you hop-off it's an hour for the next bus, they only stop to for a minute, except at the Aquaducts it's 10min for a visit. So do the 'Mouth of Truth' on your own.
I would take the 10am bus straight to the Catacombs which I assume is your main interest? And then go from there regarding the other sites.
Regards, Walter

ParadiseLost

Mamertine Prison: It is *very, very* doubtful that Peter and Paul were ever held there. But it is an fairly important ancient site.
The lower level dates back to at least the 3rdC BC, some say earlier.
It was a 'death row' for important Roman citizens and foreign leaders. If a Leader/General was brought back in one of Triumphal Parades that is where he ended up.
They would either be strangled there or brought down to the area where the Curia Julia is located and publicly executed.
If they were killed in the prison their body was brought up and thrown down the stairs that lead to the Forum for public viewing.
During Tiberius' reign a group of men were imprisoned and killed there, then their bodies were thrown down those stairs.
A dog of one of these men sat by his master day and night. Except once, when he went off and stole some bread and then tried to force it into his master's mouth.
There bodies were later taken to the Tiber River and thrown in, the dog jumped in after them and tried to bring his dead master's body to shore . Regards, Walter

petertherabbitt

with timing like that you will drive yourself crazy and become exhausted. pick an area go there-stay if youo like it otherwise move to the next place. way to tight a schedule. remember a honeymoon is supposed to be fun not a campaign endurance contest

bardo

A well thought out plan - looks pretty good. I must agree w/ Mary Fran "...be flexible and feel free to cut out some things if you get tired."

My suggestions:

SUNDAY - 10 minutes is enough to see the Spanish Steps (surrounding area can be skipped altogether if you find it dull). Largo Argentina doesn't rate a tour IMO - again 10 minutes or skip if your running tight on time.

MONDAY - You're way short of time here. Consider a later dinner to give you more time at Vatican & Castle (average dinner start time in Rome is 9:30pm anyway at 8 pm you'll always be in an empty restaurant). Have lunch at museum cafe - pretty good and saves time.

WEDNESDAY - Call to confirm where to initially catch bus! You only have time for about 3-4 stops. I would cut out Mouth of Truth and the Baths of Caracalla. Also one catacombs is enough - they are very similar.

GENERAL - You've planned a lot. It's your honeymoon. Most important: DON'T HESITATE TO TAXI. Cost is low (usually less than 5 euro and the time bought can never be replaced. For your 5 days, budget for 2 taxis/day.

tourvel

Thank you, thank you, Walter, for letting me know the Frommer's tour of the Forum is outdated. I very much enjoyed browsing your many posts as I did my research.

Is the Forum something we can do with the right book in hand, or would we be better served hiring a guide? And can we include the Colosseum in with our Forum walk and still make it to the end of the Imperial Forum (up by Campidoglio) before we run out of precious winter daylight? It is so hard to estimate, just looking at a map and reading guidebooks.

My husband and I are both Shakespeare geeks, and the Largo Argentina is appealing to us because Caesar's assassination took place here. (Yes, I know it was history before it was Shakespeare, but like I said, we're geeks.) So the free tour on Sunday-- and I think it *is* given by the cat people-- is a strong draw.

I realize that most scholars agree Peter was never incarcerated in the tiny Mamertine, but many believe it is possible that Paul was (he was a Roman citizen, after all). Seeing where he-- maybe, just *maybe*-- wrote his last letter to Timothy is irresistible to my imagination.

The combo ticket is 10 Euros, and it gets you into the Colosseum, the Palatine, all branches of the Museo Nazionale Romano, and maybe a couple of other places.

Thanks for the tip about the Archeobus leaving from Termini-- we'll definitely check for sure closer to the time of our trip. We'll take the tips of doing the Mouth of Truth on our own, and do only one set of catacombs.

The long period set aside for the Spanish Steps isn't so much for the Steps as it is for a leisurely stroll west toward the Pantheon area. Again, I have no idea how far it really is, or how long a walk that would be.

Thanks, again, everyone. All of your remarks have been so helpful and appreciated. I am whittling down the itinerary as we speak, to give us some free-time and breathing room!

Mary_Fran

"I realize that most scholars agree Peter was never incarcerated in the tiny Mamertine, but many believe it is possible that Paul was (he was a Roman citizen, after all). Seeing where he-- maybe, just *maybe*-- wrote his last letter to Timothy is irresistible to my imagination."

I like that! Put that way, I'd like to see the Mamertine too.