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ParadiseLost Jan 24th, 2007 02:35 PM

Rome: House of Livia & Augustus To Reopen Late'07: Lupercal Possibly Found! OR

[Palatine Hill]
Actually the House of Livia was open about 10yrs ago, the article says it was closed for decades.
The reopening will be with guided tours.

If this grotto/cave is the Lupercal it will be a major find!

The Lupercal was historically placed somewhere on the SW corner of the Palatine Hill at the base.

It was the mythical cave where the She-wolf brought the infants Romulus and Remus to be raised.

This cave was an actual ancient Roman site complete with rituals and a holiday. So it did exist.

But 2000yrs even the Romans were confused about their founding history and sites like this cave from ~750yrs before.
But I like this version:).

It is very possible that at least Romulus was actually raised by a She-wolf and I honestly believe it.

The Palatine Hill settlement back then was a bit of an outcast society.
And a She-wolf was slang for a prostitute :).

So as time goes on and Rome is an 'up and coming' power it kind-of looks bad for the founder's mom to be a working girl and his dad mom's pimp :(.

Better for mom to be a Vestal Virgin and dad the God Mars.
Later cast adrift by an evil uncle, found and nursed by a She-wolf (also feed solid food by a woodpecker, hey why not they're on a roll) and then later found by an honest shepard and his faithful wife:).
Regards, Walter

ParadiseLost Feb 24th, 2007 10:38 AM

Between the original article and myself I got it a bit wrong, I recently read another article on that was more descriptive.

The 'House of Augustus' is planned to be reopened later this year and has been closed for decades.

The 'House of Livia' which is nextdoor to the 'House of Augustus' will remain closed but a future opening is planned.
Regards, Walter

DejaVu Feb 24th, 2007 12:23 PM

This is very exciting news. I'm not sure the area known as the "House of Augustus" has ever been open to the public before; I went inside in 1996 as a graduate student, but I had to get a scholars' permit to do it. The House of Livia was open to the public in 1996; I went there too. Both areas have beautiful late Second Style/early Third Style frescoes. There another chamber known as the "Aula Isiaca" with paintings from the same period that was open to the public in 1999 but was closed in 2004: I wonder if that will reopen too?

ParadiseLost Nov 20th, 2007 12:36 PM

Regards, Walter

Leely Nov 20th, 2007 06:26 PM

Yes, yes, I saw on the bbc news website today. How exciting! Thank you, Walter, for keeping us all up on what's new in old Rome. I hope 2008 takes me back there.

ParadiseLost Nov 21st, 2007 02:42 PM

Another Photo & Location info;

On this map see the red/brown roofed building in the lower left corner, right above the the word 'Via'.

That is the Church of San Anastasia and just above that is the base of the Palatine Hill where the yet unfound ancient entrance to the Lupercal cave is located.

Remember they have found the cave in the Hill only by going down from groundlevel and thru its roof with a camera probe.

I wonder if the early Christians blocked-off the entrance when they closed all the Pagan temples?
And then perhaps it was just built-over over the centuries?
Or an earthquake closed the entrance?

They (historians/archaeologists) always knew it was located in that general area.

From what I have read I *think* they believed it was just a small simple cave in the hillside with the temple built in front of it?

But now it seems that the interior cave was actually the temple?

Which would explain why not even the scant remains like a concrete base for this temple was ever found *on* the hillside?
Regards, Walter

Steve_James Nov 23rd, 2007 06:03 AM

ParadiseLost Nov 25th, 2007 02:51 PM

This nymphaeum probably isn't the Lupercal :( .

I snipped my post from an archaeological NG titled 'Sacred Cave or a Room of Nero's Palace?"

[IMO] Certain Roman Archaeologists along with the archaeological/cultural gov't officials has been telling tales every year for 3 yrs now for the Worldwide press coverage.
 And I think this nymphaeum discovery is another example.

[IIRC] First it was "King's Palace discovered in Roman Forum", this so-called new discovery was drummed-up like a major find.

 The Regia (Royal Palace) & area was traditionally believed to be the palace of Rome's 2nd King Numa (715-673BC).
 Whether true or not, a 7C noble Etruscan house was excavated in that location years ago.
 And the 'REX' (king) cup/bowl dating to I believe ~625BC was also found there (iffy but still).

 Also I *believe* the 'Domus Publica' remains followed the same lines as this *newly* discovered Palace (just built-over over the centuries).
 So this location and remains were always known for many decades perhaps even since the 19C excavations.

 Next it was the "Newly discovered tombs predate Romulus' founding of Rome" (753BC).

 Again a major drummed-up discovery and the PR hype was Romulus' people weren't the first to settle here which would change the founding of Rome's history!!!
 These tombs were found in the 'Forum of Caesar' and I recall dated to the ~12C.

But they knew that in the Roman Forum Museum there are cremation urns and funerary artifacts dating to the 10C found in the Roman Forum.
And this was just one small excavated area in the Forum.

 And on the Palatine Hill human artifacts from the Middle Palaeolithic Age right up to a permanent settlement starting in the 13C BC have been found.  

 Ok now even before they started drilling they must have known that a nymphaeum fitting that exact description was somewhere in that area.

 And when finding it *there* they would have known based on it's location that it was wrongly and fancifully ID'ed as the Lupercal in the 16C.

'Early and Imperial Rome: Or, Promenade Lectures on the Archaeology' by Hodder Michael Westropp - 1884

"Aldovrandi, who lived in the middle of the sixteenth century,, tells us that a nymphaeum, ornamented with marine shells, was discovered at the foot of that part of the Palatine near the church of S. Anastasia in his day. This was probably the Lupercal".

 So they know this nymphaeum is in the wrong place to be the Lupercal.

 And the photos and that 16C account only show and mention sea shells and nothing to tie it in with a She-Wolf, the twins or anything to do with that myth?

 But yet look at most of the press releases, "almost certainly", "experts believe" to "one of the greatest finds in history" (the above BBC article S_J posted isn't that bad though).

"Man Bites Dog".
 How much press would a simple nymphaeum found at the base of the Palatine Hill get, it would be on some history/archaeological blogs/websites and a snipnet in Archaeological magazines.  
 But tie it in with the Cave of the She-wolf, Romulus and Remus and the founding of Rome and it's a major Worldwide story...again.  
 This map shows the location of this nymphaeum (in the center, a blue circle).

 If you draw a line left to right thru the blue circle.

Starting from the right; You have the Circus Maximus, modern street, the Church, the grassy slope/base of the Hill, the nymphaeum.

On the left; The line cuts thru the bottom side of the Temple of Apollo which is above the line.

 Below the line; is the House of Augustus and to the left of that the House of Livia.

 Now in the lower left corner of that map in that blank space is where the Temple of Victory was.
And where Dionysius of Halicarnassus wrote that the Lupercal was in front of at the base of the Hill.
[Map] *OR*

This photo shows where they drilled the hole on the Hill's slope. Those huge stone blocks are either the foundation for the Temple of Apollo or a retaining wall? The temple is actually set back alittle farther. *OR*

 I really wish it was the Lupercal they found but that just seems to be very wishful thinking:).

 And did Nero really build his 1st Palace that far over and oddly to the base of the Palatine?

 I wonder if this was just a nymphaeum of some rich aristocrat's home, Dionysius of Halicarnassus says that there were so many bldgs in the area that it was hard to find the Lupercal 2000yrs ago. Regards, Walter

Apres_Londee Nov 25th, 2007 03:04 PM

Whatever it turns out to be, the mosaics they found are beautiful. Thanks for posting this, Walter.

ParadiseLost Nov 30th, 2007 12:45 PM

More opinions from the 'Not' side.,00.html OR
Regards, Walter

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