RLM346 UPDATED SPAIN TRIP PLAN + SOME ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AND HELP NEEDED + SOME THINGS WE LEARNED IN THE PLANNING PROCESS.
 

This is a follow-up to: http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...mp;keyword=153

My purpose is threefold: to provide feedback of where we currently stand for those who assisted us; to get some additional assistance and to supply information and ideas for future planners as a partial payback for the help we received. Eventually, we will do a trip report.

Current Plan: Trip from mid-September to Early October: Based on the advice of many of you on Foder’s, other acquaintances of ours and a variety of sources we have settled on this plan.
Day1 Flight to Madrid
Day2 Madrid- Westin Palace
Arrive AM; Explore Madrid
Day3-6 Sevilla-Westin Alfonso XIII
Train to Sevilla; Explore Sevilla, Cordoba(train) & Jerez/Cadiz area(car)
Day7-9 Granada-NH Victoria
Drive to Granada explore Arcos & white villages; explore Granada; Alhambra:
Day9 Ronda-Parador
Drive to Ronda along coastal route; possible Nerja Caves; Explore Ronda
Day 10 Costa Brava-Parador Aigua Blava(may change)
Drive Malaga & fly to Barcelona; rent car & drive to Costa Brava
Next day visit Figureres & explore coast.
Day 11-14 Barcelona-Pulitzer
Return to Barcelona late on day 11; Explore Barcelona
Day 15-16 San Sebastian- Maria Cristina
Fly to San Sebastian; explore San Sebastian & nearby Basque area (car)
Day 17-18 Elciego-Marqués De Riscal
Explore La Rioja
Day 19 Segovia-Hotel Los Linajes
Drive to Segovia; Explore Segovia
Next morning drive to Toledo; Explore Toledo; Drive to Madrid
Day 20-23 Madrid-Westin Palace
Drive to Madrid late on day 20; explore Madrid
Day 24(10/9) Return Home

We have reserve all the hotels, cars & planes. We have not reserved the trains.

QUESTIONS:
• Train Bookings: Can we just purchase Madrid-Seville, Seville-Cordoba & Cordoba-Seville tickets at the station to give us greater flexibility or do we need to book in advance? If so, how far in advance?
• Costa Brava/Segovia Hotel: We have mixed emotions about Parador Aigua Blava on Costa Brava and Hotel Los Linajes in Segovia. Do you have any experience with either of these hotels; or have any recommendations for better accommodations (Note: Infanta Isabell was not available).
• Planning Our Activities, Eating & Drinking: Our next step is to make a short list of key activities, restaurants,bodegas, tapa bars and other night life. We have collected a great deal of information from a wide range of sources and have to organize it over the next month or so. If you have any favorites that you want to make sure we don’t overlook, please let us know.
• Major Mistakes With Our Plan: If you see anything in our plan that you believe is a big mistake please let us know.

SUGGESTIONS FOR TRIP PLANNERS: We are far from experts about Spain but perhaps some of our experiences in putting our plan together might be helpful to other trip planners.

SEARCH FODER’S FOR YOUR QUESTIONS BEFORE ASKING THEM: We found many of our questions had been answered many times before and found a wealth of information by performing a variety of searches. Then when we did ask some questions they were for areas we were not able to find. It makes it more efficient for everyone.

BEWARE OF FESTIVALS: Initially in the planning process, quickly check for festivals & holidays in target areas or availability of key hotels. You may have to plan around these time periods because of the lack of adequate accommodations. We had to make major changes to our original trip plan because of September festivals in San Sebastian and La Rioja and had a slight problem in Barcelona (arriving the day after a holiday).

ALHAMBRA CONSIDERATIONS & BOOKING: Many posters recommend visiting Alhambra at night as well as in the daytime. Be aware that it is not open on Sunday and Monday nights. We had to revamp our Seville-Ronda-Granada plan to arrive a day earlier in Granada to be able to go on a Saturday night.

Most Alhambra info sources point you to the BBVA for reserving tickets. It appears they will no longer be booking tickets for dates after August 1, 2007. To book tickets go to the Alhambra main site (below) for info and links for reserving: http://www.alhambradegranada.org/gui...ntradas_en.asp

GREAT INFO SOURCES: Besides the various discussions and trip reports here at Fodor’s, we found (as many have reported here) Maribels guides, http://maribelsguides.com, one of the best sources for many areas in Spain. We also found comparing her suggested hotels plus those found on Fodor’s and other travel guides and services with trip advisor http://www.tripadvisor.com ratings and comments very helpful. The ratings are good but the comments are also very helpful. We all have different priorities.

5* HOTEL DISCOUNTS: If you are interested in some of the 5* historically elegant hotels as we were, a careful review of pricing for different time periods plus AAA and Senior discounts (okay I am showing my age) can produce more affordable rates. In one case we had to commit to a senior discount with a non-refundable payment but it was about a 50% discount. In other cases, the AAA was better than the Senior discount. I only was able to do this for Starwood hotels but perhaps there are other chains we did not check that also do this.

PARADOR DISCOUNTS: While Paradors in general, https://www.parador.es, advertise that they also have discount plans for seniors, young travelers and 5-night stays at one or more locations in a given time period, I found these are not always available. So plan these way ahead of time to get the best prices. I also experienced periods of time where you could not get through to their site so keep trying.

GOOGLE WORLD: This free program was very helpful in planning the trip. Every time a name of a city came up I would plug it in to Google World and it would “fly” me there. When I was considering driving between points I would plug those in to see the distance and time estimates. I am sure they are not always correct but they give you a feel.

A couple of things.

The AVE can be sold out.

I have not driven to Ronda in many years, but if they have not improved the road, it will take at least 50% longer than you beileive. Additionally, the roads in the Costa del Sol may also be slow due to congestion.

See if the parador in Granada is avilable. It is the most difficult to secure a reservation.

Rich, No comments except to say it is a fantastic itinerary.

I don't have any comments except I've done Cordoba as a day trip by train from Seville, and there is absolutely no reason at all to buy those tickets in advance. There are many runs to/from all day long. I just took a local regional train, although it is a stop on some AVE runs, also. The time difference between those two isn't that great, and the regional train tickets are pretty cheap.

Aduchamp1 & Christina: Thanks for the info on the AVE trains and Granada trains.

Question: If you have a ticket on a an AVE train, can you get on an earlier one if there is room OR are you required to take the one your reserved?

Also,we tried to get into the Parador in Granada but it was full. We also considered the Alhambra Palace but did not get a great impression about it from the reviews we read. So, we opted for one more in town. Is that a good decision?

No idea on changing AVE's.

RENFE has an English translation but I am not sure it has a disclaimer section.

AVE trains require reservations, so you can't just get on a train. If you are really there that early that you think you can make another one, you'd have to go to a ticket clerk and make a reservation change. If you paid a full-price ticket, I suppose the cost would be minimal, but fares can differ depending on time of day, as I recall.

Great info on tapas in San Sebastian:
www.todopintxos.com
Restaurants to dine in Getaria (a coastal village): "Elkano" or "Kaia".
Ask "cogote de merluza" (grilled hake) and "txakoli" (local white wine).

Exactly what date will you be in Segovia?

If possible, do not skip the parador at Aiguablava.The scenery is breathtaking and the staff very helpful.

Amsdon-We will be in Segovia on October 4th.

You are zig-zagging going Seville to Granada (Arcos and Pueblos Blancos are off the way), then Ronda then Nerja. I’ll figure out something tomorrow.
On occasions of great AVE demand, they usually add new trains. You better book in advance, but no need to worry much. And the Ronda roads have indeed improved.
You can take an AVE earlier than your scheduled, if seats are available. I usually do it. No extra fares.
The Granada Hotel, there are some choices with good reviews in other posts. If you are down in the town, there is a 1eur (more or less) bus that goes up and down the Alhambra. It wont be an inconvenience.

Revulgo: Thanks for the tapas in San Sebastian link. I can't wait to experience them first hand!

Lovely trip rim, one tiny , little thing, you can take advante of the Años Dorados not paying the ticket to visit the Alcazar. This is not c0mmon because many times discounts and free passes are limitid to citizens from the Common European Market.
Just in case always ask and if you find another place with free entrance for seniors, please, let us know.
Josele as always has very good advice try not to zig zag in your itinerary.

I mean the Alcazar in Seville.

RLM:

Re Segovia:

Yes the Infanta Isabel is totally booked at this time for the 4th but not the 3rd. (I e mailed them) Looks like your schedule is pretty set for those specific days. You can always check for last minute availablility.

I have not stayed at the Linajes but the TA reviews a good, location a bit further (20 mins walk) from the aqueduct) but especially the views are nice so I assume you would ask for a room w/ view. The Infanta is good but the location is really the strong point of that hotel if you want to be 5 minutes from eveything. But the Linajes may prove even better for you the balconies are bigger and may be more relaxing ?

Thanks Amsdon, I appreciate you double checking Infanta for me. Yes, that night will work out the best for us. I will keep trying to see if they get openings.

I did not realize that Linajes would be a 20 min walk. Looking back at Maribel's report it does say 300 meters (which I translate into about 3 US football fields)so that makes sense.

The other hotel that is in Maribel's Segovia report that seems to be close to the action is Hosteria Ayala Berganza. It also had good reviews in TA but there were only 4 total & only one from 2007 & one in 2006. Maribel didn't seem to be high on its surrounds and I have seen mixed reviews elsewhere. Do you or anyone else have any experience with this hotel.
Thanks, Rich

ZIGZAGGING PROBLEM: I have been working on the zigzag around Andalusia that a few of you have identified. Here are my thoughts and questions:

I have one major constraint in making changes. The four nights in Alfonso are the only reservations I cannot change. I was able to get such a good deal on superior rooms through a “senior” discount that required a non-refundable reservation. Considering that I cannot leave Seville until Saturday, here are three potential plans:

·Current Plan: Stop in Madrid for one night before going to Seville for four nights. Leave Seville on Saturday and drive down to Arcos & white villages then back up and out to Granada for two nights (Saturday & Sunday); visiting Alhambra at night and during the day. Then driving via the coast to Ronda the next day, staying Monday night.. Finally leaving from Malaga to Barcelona on Tuesday.

· Revision #1: As above stop in Madrid for one night before going to Seville for four nights. Leave Seville on Saturday and drive down to Arcos & white villages as planned but now go to Ronda for Saturday night thus skipping seeing Alhambra at night. Then go onto Granada for two nights (Sunday and Monday); visiting Alhambra only during the day. Drive from Granada to Malaga to fly to Barcelona on Tuesday.

· Revision #2: Don’t stay in Madrid but go directly to Seville via train or plane the day we arrive. Stay five nights in Seville instead of four. Spend the extra day doing a day trip to Arcos and the white villages returning to Seville. Leave Seville early AM as planned on Saturday going directly to Ronda. Explore Ronda and leave mid PM to drive to Granada, visiting Alhambra at night. Spend two nights in Granada then drive to Nerja or Malaga for Monday night exploring the coast on the way. Leave from Malaga to Barcelona as planned on Tuesday.

We need to decide which is better:
· Current: Half day in Madrid, Zigzag around Andalusia, Alhambra at night and Ronda overnight.

· Revision #1: Half day in Madrid, no zigzag, skip Alhambra at night and stay in Ronda overnight.

· Revision #2: No Madrid at front end (3 days at end of trip). No zigzag, more time in white villages, Ronda only during day, Nerja/Malaga at end of trip.

We would love to have any insights that would help us make this decision.

Rich you should look at the Trip advisor hotel reviews for Segovia just in case. I only learned about the 20 minute walk from reading those.

ams

Hi there.
First, you cannot miss the Alfonso XIII, it is a great classic hotel.
Upon departing from Seville on Saturday morning, the obvious drive for me would be to Arcos de la Frontera (Utrera-->El Coronil-->Puerto Serrano, and then west to Villamartín-->Bornos-->Arcos. Go up the hill to the sqare-turned-parking lot, and the mirador with the breathtaking view. Walk around the church in that square, and walk to San Pedro church (the one you see left from the mirador). Then continue to El Bosque and Grazalema, where you can have lunch. Continue to Zahara, this path has gotten a good post the other days; There is a Hotel up the hill in Zahara, to park and idle. Then continue to Algodonales and Ronda (hotel).
From Ronda you can drive to Teba-->Campillos-->(see Antequera in the distance at the right) and A92 to Granada.
From Granada you can drive south to Motril-->east to Salobreña and Nerja, and then motorway all the way to Malaga and airport.
Another choice is Ronda-->Marbella-->Coastal motorway to Nerja, and then Almuñecar, Salobreña and north to Granada. Back to Malaga via Motorway A92.
There is another possibility for going from Ronda to Malaga, but there is a very bad part, presently under repairs, and depending on the day you can find very heavy traffic upon reaching Malaga.

SORRY, from Motril you go WEST to Salobreña, Nerja etc.

josele,
Thanks for your detailed trip plan. I had no intention of skipping the Alfonso. I would have liked to arrive there a day early and leave a day earlier but so far that does not seem possible.

It sounds like you recommend my plan revision #1 which has me spend the night in Ronda and skip the Alhambra at night. Is that correct?

Would I be able to do the trip you suggested on Friday and return to Seville that night(as described in plan revision #2)? If so, I would go right to Granada or just stop in Ronda for the day on Saturday. This would mean not staying in Ronda overnight but seeing the Alhambra at night. Is staying overnight in Ronda important?

Great News. The Alfonso allowed us to move our reservation up one day without penalty. We still stay 4 nights but leave Seville on Friday so our new plan is:

Don’t stay in Madrid but go directly to Seville via train or plane the day we arrive. Stay four nights in Seville exploring Seville, Cordoba & Jerez/Cadiz. Depart Seville on Friday, exploring Arcos and the white villages on the way to Ronda. Leave Ronda on Saturday going to Granada visiting Alhambra at night. Spend two nights in Granada then drive to Nerja or Malaga for Monday night exploring the coast on the way. Leave from Malaga to Barcelona as planned on Tuesday.

We now have to determine where we stay in Nerja/Malaga area. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR ASSISTANCE. THIS PLAN IS DEFINITELY BETTER!

Hi, rlm346 -
For what it's worth: I saw the Alhambra during both the day and at night, and for me, the experience of seeing it at night was the highpoint of a 3-week trip to central and southern Spain. I also spent a night in Ronda, and enjoyed it, but would not have traded the evening at the Alhambra for one in Ronda.

Hello, RLM346, et al, Re Alhambra tickets. I checked out the site rlm http://www.alhambradegranada.org/gui...ntradas_en.asp & they have a link to purchase tix at www.alhambratickets.com Has anyone tried this? Is it safe? Thanks a lot. V McG'

Regarding the Segovia hotels:
I've visited Segovia twice and stayed in 2001 at the Hotel Infanta Isabel and last year at the Hotel Partner Ayala Berganza. You can't beat the location at the Hotel Infanta Isabel and it was my first choice last year but it was booked. The Ayala Berganza is very nice though. It's not as centrally located - about a 10 minute walk from the Plaza Mayor, but it is very handy to the bus station and I was relying on public transportation. Have you checked the somewhat new La Casa Mudajar?

http://www.lacasamudejarsegovia.com/

I also tried to book there but they were full. It's literally around the corner from the Infanta and the Plaza Mayor.

I would definately spend enough time in Sevilla. You're visiting at a great time of year and this city is the heart and soul of Spain. Have you looked into visiting the sherry triangle bodegas? I'm particularly fond of Sanlucar de Barrameda. I visit Cadiz every year and it is my favorite city.

Did you consider visiting Girona when you are in Catalunya? It's a gem....medieval stone city with a great old quarter and the best preserved Jewish quarter in Spain.

One other comment: Not sure if I agree with your statement "beware of festivals"! My favorite time to visit a city is when they are having a festival. I'd say it is more "be Aware of festivals". Depending on the city and the size of the festival you may need to plan your hotel far in advance. I have had some of most most memorable experiences at large festivals (Semana Santa, La Merce, fall wine harvest in Logrono) and local festivals in small villages (Olite, Tordesillas). It just required advance planning.

Hope this helps!

bvmcginnis, I believe if you follow the links at www.alhambratickets.com you eventually end up at the BBVA ticket purchase site which indicates they no longer sell tickets for dates after July. The http://www.alhambradegranada.org/gui...ntradas_en.asp link gives you links for both before the end of July (which sends you to the link discussed above and the BBVA site) or for after July to the servicaixa site. It is my impression that the Alhambra just changed agents. I purchased tickets for September without any problem however since I have not used them yet I don't know if there will be any problem. But it all seems legitimate.

CathyM,
Segovia: La Casa Mudajar is also booked for the night we will be there. A spanish friend of ours recommended we stay at Palacio San Facundo in Plaza San Facundo, which is a few blocks from Plaza Mayor. We are now booked there. Are you familiar with that hotel?

Sevilla: We are staying four nights in Sevilla and planning day trips to Cordoba and Jerez/Cadiz. So we will have about 1.5 days plus all four nights for Sevilla itself. Is that enough time? If not we could make either of the day trips a half day trip and spend the remainder in Sevilla.

It sounds like we should also include Sanlucar de Barrameda in our trip to Jerez/Cadiz area.

We do have Girona on our list of possibilities although we may not have the time to do it justice. We want to go to Figueres and enjoy the coast and are only there for one night and about 1.5 days. We will keep it in mind and see how things work out.

I agree that BE AWARE OF FESTIVALS is a better way of titling my alert to future planners that hotels can get filled up fast at these times.

Thanks for your advise. Rich

Looks like a great plan; The Alfonso in Seville is wonderful -- we loved it!

I was recently refused at the Infanta Isabel but one week before the trip I called them and they had a room. It is really ideally situated so do try again.

Beware that parking is awful in Figueres and the Dali museum is always packed.

In Ronda, spring for a superior room -- n° 13 is fantanstic!

In Granada we stayed both in town and at the Parador -- in town was lots of fun -- free tapas with drinks.

Try to see if there is any Flamanco in Jerez; we attended a wonderful, tear-producing production during a festival.

If you are an amigos at the paradors you get free parking ;)

In Granada, the Tapa is not free, but included in the price with the drink.

I'm enjoying reading the help that you've gotten for your trip. My husband and I will be in Spain at about the same time (arrive on 9/24) with a similiar itinerary. We'll be there for 3 weeks with 6 nights in Madrid, the AVE to Sevilla for 5 nights, then fly to San Sebstian for 4 nights and fly to Barcelona for 4 nights. We'll do day trips to Toledo & Segovia from Madrid and to Cordoba and Granada from Sevilla. I know everyone's opinion here about staying in Granada and seeing the Alhambra at night(and that it's 12 hours as a day trip). We'll do the overnite on another trip. This is our first of many trips to Spain. Is it really necessary to buy the AVE tickets and Alhambra tickets now? I'm trying to be a little spontaneous in my schedule.

Moxie: Thanks for the feedback. We will keep checking on the Infanta Isabel, have booked a superior room in Ronda and will become an amigos.

Lynnesm: I understand Alhambra does get booked but am as new to this as you are. We did not want to take a chance since we are driving there. The reservations are for morning or afternoon to the grounds but you are assigned a 1/2 hour slot for the palace (I found if you don't like the slot you can cancel and redo and they give you a differnt one). The good news is in the scheme of things the tickets are not that expensive if you decided to(and could) go a different day and could not change (I don't know exchange policy). Rich

I have received mixed feedback on AVE. Can be sold out but not usually; run frequently in most cases. Also, I understand you can change a ticket free for the same day if the time slot is available. We plan to book Madrid-Seville at the latest time we want to go and change to earlier if we can. They run every hour and we don't want to wait around the Station too long since we just flew in from the US. We plan to wait for our Cordoba day trip.

Note altamiro's comment at:http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...mp;keyword=153

Sorry but I do not know of the hotel in Segovia. Did you check reviews in TripAdvisor? I use this forum in addition to the Trip Advisor hotel feedback to factor into many of my hotel decisions.

I'd allow at least 3 full days for Sevilla. Maribel's guide is right on the mark.

I personally enjoy Sanlucar versus Jerez. Probably due to the location and the great tapa bars in the main square, Casa Balbino. On my last trip we had a great day visiting a bodega, sampling tapas in the Plaza Cabildo, then walking to the beach and enjoying langostinos de Sanlucar. The best bodega tour I have EVER been on is in Sanlucar, Pedro Romero. It is a small family-owned bodega. A couple of years ago I missed my appointment at the Bodegas Barbadillo and quickly searched my guidebook for a nearby bodega. Luckily, I visited Bodegas Pedro Romero. This tour is generally a small group of people and is very informative. At the end you sample the sherry right out of the barrel in the bodega - not a glass in a tasting room like the other bodegas. If you have Fernando as your guide he's the best.

http://www.pedroromero.es/ingles/principal.asp

Thanks. I think I'll do the same-get the tickets for Madrid to Sevilla and wait on the shorter trips and make the arrangements for the Alhambra. Have a great time.