Rick Steves - Ugly American Again!

Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 06:55 AM
  #261  
 
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"PalenQ. Your French friends and in-laws certainly sound delightful."

My thoughts exactly.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 07:09 AM
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Snobbery here is when someone has a different opinion. It is OK to criticize another as long as the herd agrees.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 07:26 AM
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<some folks are more then happy with the BRIEF and non stuffy assessment of "court photojournalist" ,, that's all they need to know and don't WANT a indepth description or assessment. >
Yes, but that doesn't make people who want more than that "stuffed shirts". It means there are different guidebooks out there for different tastes, and RS does not work for travelers seeking an in-depth guide to art and architecture, or at least would not work as a sole source.

Therefore, what's wrong with propounding that fact, so that newbie travelers realize that RS is not the be-all and end-all guide?
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 07:45 AM
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"This is lazy and uneducated writing. Do your own research to confirm this, this is not my opinion but those who study art."<<<<<<<<<

IMD, but we aren't talking about those who study art. We're discussing folks whose travel is only on the surface. And Mr. Steves addresses that segment quite well.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 10:15 AM
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Building on the comments of Dudette. Europe 101, History and Art for the Traveler-by Rick Steves and Gene Openshaw, is Ding Dong School for travelers. That is what is meant to be.

"No apologies. This book will drive art snobs nuts. Its gross generalizations, sketchy dates, oversimplifications, and shoot-from-the-hip opinions will really tweeze art highbrows. All we want to do is give smart, Europe-bound people who slept through their history and art classes a good, practical way to catch up and understand Europe."
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 10:30 AM
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I agree heatedly with TDudette and dugi otok - the Steves art book is what it is and those who take it find it invaluable probably.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 10:33 AM
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Newbe. that's the point.. no one thinks RS books are the be all end all guides.. not even those who use them.. they are meantfor a certain segment of the travelling public.. those who are not experienced and are not looking for indepth writing on art and history..

Read dugi-otoks last paragraph.. that is the RS philosophy.. no claims to greatness there.. just offering a thumbnail sketch to those visitors who need a crash course in history and art "lite" .

On the other hand there are pretentious snobs who act like people who are content with that are basically idiots and those who cater to them ( ie RS) are idiots too..

That is the issue. Its NOT that RS books etc are so superior.. its that they FIT THEIR NICHE market and you can look at the RS bank statements to verify that.!!
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 01:12 PM
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<<No apologies. This book will drive art snobs nuts. Its gross generalizations, sketchy dates, oversimplifications, and shoot-from-the-hip opinions will really tweeze art highbrows.

I actually wish more of art history would be this way. I read "real" art history books, and the conclusions some of the so-called experts make just don't make a lot of sense.

And modern art is filled with so many crazy opinions..."this painting represents the shifting paradigm from the symbolism of the oppressed man in an ever alienating world of epic tragedy"...used to describe a canvas with two blobs of paint on it.

There have been occasions in my Art Goes to School group where our members have contacted artists still living to ask them about their paintings in our portfolio. Our members asked the artists about symbolism critics have attributed to their work, and if that was what the painter intended. The answer was, No, I just liked the subject matter!
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 02:10 PM
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If just one person did some research on the matter, it would have added some credibility. But people would rather argue from what they know rather than knowledge about the subject.

We took a young women to MoMA and explained this or that and she said her entire perspective about me. We also had a visitor from Europe who was not an art major and we spent 2 hours in 6 rooms at the Met in NYC. She was 17.

But dummy me, I thought one aspect of travel was to learn about different things and get rid preconceived notions. But apparently this crowd is not interested in either.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 02:30 PM
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And the next time you take a continuing ed course or even a tour and the teacher or guide says that he or she would tell you more or something more accurate but you signed up for the medium intelligence course, don't complain because that is what you are defending.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 03:27 PM
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If you are addressing me, I've taken art history classes in college, I have volunteered for 15 years with Art Goes to School (where we research the paintings in our annual portfolios), have attended numerous lectures at the Philadelphia Museum of Art and at UPenn, and read at least two books on art from my university library a month.

I wonder why think you know more about art than anyone else on this thread. You really are acting insufferable.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 03:54 PM
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For what it's worth:

Interview with Rozanne Stringer (https://www.ricksteves.com/tours/gui...zanne-stringer)

<b>You have a reputation as someone who has an insatiable thirst for learning. What's the latest?</b>

I'm happy to say that I have just finished getting my Ph.D. in Art History from the University of Kansas. My major has been in 19th-century French art with minors in 17th-century Dutch painting and in Chinese sculpture. My dissertation focused on images by Edouard Manet, Edgar Degas, Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, and Frédéric Bazille.

I am very fortunate that both my academic work and guiding for Rick Steves entail the things I like to do most: travel, research, writing, and teaching. Certainly, my extended research trips to Paris have benefited my guiding of Paris and the reverse is also true. I have taught in the Art History Department and the Humanities and Western Civilization Program at KU during my doctoral studies and was fortunate to direct the KU Paris/Florence study abroad program in 2006. I could draw on my knowledge of museums, markets, and restaurants from guiding Rick Steves' tours for the benefit of my students. I can also offer tour members on Rick Steves' tours a perspective of Paris and Florence from someone who has resided there.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 08:50 PM
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IMD, I detest personal attacks but you really need a shorter horse.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 11:09 PM
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IMDonehere.. this crowd is not good enough for you, suggest you find your people. Good luck.
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Old Oct 3rd, 2014, 11:13 PM
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My son likes to paint.
My stepmother is a lovely woman and she also has her doctorate in Medival Art and teaches at our university.

She looked at one of my sons paintings and starting assessing aspects of it.. she said certain things represented this and that... she liked the painting.. she commented on many aspects.

When I related her comments to my son.. he assured me she was totally off base.. that the things she thought meant one thing meant totally something else...

Is she right or is he?
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Old Oct 4th, 2014, 01:49 AM
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Friend of mine did her MA at the Courtauld with summer work at the Louvre which made going round an art gallery interesting. Or as she said, "these dead guys wanted to insult these other dead guys, so they left the message in the painting so that they could see it, basically they are all dead now so who cares?"

I went round the Tripoli museum in Libya with the Director a few years back and he said much the same but was talking about Romans.

They are dead, get over it.

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Old Oct 4th, 2014, 07:28 AM
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bilboburgler, I loved the Courtauld. Perfect size for this old gal and nice art history survey IMHO. Would love example(s) of the insulting art.
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Old Oct 4th, 2014, 07:51 AM
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<<Is she right or is he?

Well, it's not her!

I've read a lot about Heironymous Bosch, and one art historian wrote a big fat book with a kind of crazy theory that Bosch was a member of a heretical sect. Most art people put no stock in that, noting that, for one thing, his conclusions ignore a lot of historical facts.

Some art analysis is also based on paintings of a particular artist that end up not being by the artist after all. The Philadelphia Museum of Art had to re-attribute 2 Bosch's in their collection. Panel dating proved that the paintings were on materials from 20 years AFTER Bosch's death. Any interpretations made about his work based on paintings such as those are incorrect.
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Old Oct 4th, 2014, 07:55 AM
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Misattributed symbolism doesn't only happen with paintings - I recently read an article where authors were asked if they intentionally included symbolism in their novels.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/30937...as-intentional

<<It was 1963, and 16-year-old Bruce McAllister was sick of symbol-hunting in English class. Rather than quarrel with his teacher, he went straight to the source: McAllister mailed a crude, four-question survey to 150 novelists, asking if they intentionally planted symbolism in their work. Seventy-five authors responded. Here’s what 12 of them had to say. (Copies of the survey responses can be found at the Paris Review).

I'll let you read the article, but for example, Kerouac and Bradbury said that they didn't include symbolism, and several authors indicated that readers saw symbolism in their work where they had not intended it to be.
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