Rhine River cruise going south to Bingen and two days after
 

Traveling from Cologne by train, where is it best to start Rhine River cruise to end at Bingen? And also I would like a recommendation for the best place to spend two nights in area between Bingen and Stasbourg.
My husband and I are around 70. We like places that are not to overly touristy, but have good scenery. architecture, ruins and museums.
Thank you for any advice.

the best IME to do the fabled Rhine gorge is to take a train or drive to Rudesheim, opposite Bingen - where many K-D services begin (www.k-d.com) and then go to Bingen and down the Rhine to Boppard, Marksburg or Koblenz - going downstream is faster than upstream and many find the trip gets a bit tedious after a few hours.

I saw board in Rudesheim because that is tour bus group central and many folks swarm on the boats there - taking often the best seats - the ones on the railing right up front - rather than having to sit on one side of the boat or the other.

The best scenery ends by Boppard, which has a train station if going by train or to Marksburg, if you want to visit that the most famous of the Rhine Castles and unlike those at St Goar and Bingen an authentic ancient castle not ruined in wars or rebuilt.

For a dream town to stay in check out Cochem, on the Mosel, which to me and many is anyway a much more gorgeous river valley than the Rhine - trains go to Cochem in 20 minutes from Koblenz and the Rhine, making it a perfect base from which to hop to the Rhine boats - about an hour or so by train to Rudesheim via Koblenz from Cochem then go back to Cochem by train from Boppard, Marksburg or Koblenz, IMO a very pleasant city that gets short shrift in most folks plans - but a really neat restored Altstadt (Old Town) with beer halls, outdoor cafes, restaurants and a great great pedestrian shopping street if shopping is your bag!

As for Cochem it is the picture postcard town of your dreams - better in that regard IMO than any of the Rhine Gorge towns and much quieter - the tranquility of the Rhine is disturbed by two busy rail lines - one along each side and two busy highways - again one on each side.

Cochem even has its own winery and is located at one of the most very scenic parts of the Mosel Valley - it also has the castle of your dreams poking out of a vineyard-clad hill in the town - though it's Ersatz, being rebuilt from rubble in the late 1880s I believe it just adds to the towns picture postcardness!

For lots of good info on trains in the area, the Mosel and Rhine gorge and K-D boats check out these sources that have in-dpeth coverage: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.


https://www.google.com/search?q=coch...m%3B1500%3B997

Thank you. I just didn't realize that we needed to start the K-D cruise at the Rudesheim end and go toward Koblenz.
Do you know which Regional train pass (passes) we should get to go from Cologne to Cockem, then Cochem to Rudesheim?
The Regional pass map on the bahn.com site is not easy to understand. It show the regions but not the major cities or towns which would help.

You can get the boat going south, it is just that you will be going against the strong current and it takes longer.

Boats do go from Cologne to Koblenz but it takes all day - literally all day - take the train - even at full fare it is not much - I am not sure that any regional pass would cover both Cologne and the Rhine Gorge area and a combo of two regional passes may be more than the train. Plus you can get discounted tickets on www.bahn.de/en if you book far enough in advance or if not are lucky the limited number in that discounted fare category are still available.

Once in Cochem or other base in the area yes the Lander Tickets are a great deal - I am not sure they cover the boats but may - railpasses do I know but not sure about regional passes as they do not cover anything but regional trains - no express trains, etc. You do not have to start in Rudesheim that was just my advice after taking groups on these boats many many times and seeing the best seats taken before docking at Bingen - board at Bingen if that is a lot easier for you.

It is indeed wisest to take the train south from Cologne to Bingen (or Rüdesheim) to begin a northbound cruise from there.

"And also I would like a recommendation for the best place to spend two nights in area between Bingen and Stasbourg."

Before we get to that... it is not clear how many nights, if any, you are spending in the Middle Rhine area (cruise zone.) If 0 nights or even 1 night, then a trip to Cochem that same day doesn't make sense to me. Let's look at your travel that day if Cochem is involved (assuming you drop bags at a hotel in Bingen just before the cruise.)

Cologne-Bingen train: 1.5 - 2.5 hours
Bingen or Rüdesheim-Bopppard cruise: 2.5 hours
Boppard-Cochem train: 1 hour
Cochem-Bingen train: 1.75-2 hours
That doesn't include any waiting/walking time

(Cochem is NOT between Bingen and Strasbourg but involves a substantial detour; it is a place I like very much but some consider it "overly touristy.")

IMO if you are staying one night, just stay in Bingen, cruise to Boppard, and then return to Bingen by train, stopping in the attractive towns of St. Goar, Bacharach, and/or Oberwesel.

If you are NOT staying the night in the Middle Rhine and are looking for 2 nights somewhere BETWEEN Bingen and Strasbourg instead, there are several options - Mainz, Worms, and Speyer among them, all places with a mix of "good scenery, architecture, ruins and museums."




My husband and I are around 70. We like places that are not to overly touristy, but have good scenery. architecture, ruins and museums."

Baden-Baden also makes a nice stop en route to Strasbourg.

(Cochem is NOT between Bingen and Strasbourg but involves a substantial detour; it is a place I like very much but some consider it "overly touristy.")>

Substantial detour - 20 minutes by train from Koblenz and IME of taking many folks thru both the Rhine and Mosel hands down folks enjoyed Cochem more than any Rhine town - again main railways and roads and constant commercial boat traffic just take away the tranquility from the Rhine IMO than laid-bak Cochem - July is the busy season in Cochem and yes the town attracts many German and especially Dutch tourists (they say they come here to see hills!) - so it depends on the time of year

at other times outside especially July and August the Mosel is very untouristed - have been there in May and June and you practically have the place to yourself so it is just for a relatively short several weeks where yes the town, for good reason, attracts many tourists and some may not like that.

Russ: "Cochem is NOT between Bingen and Strasbourg but involves a substantial detour; it is a place I like very much but some consider it "overly touristy."

PalenQ: "Substantial detour - 20 minutes by train from Koblenz and IME of taking many folks thru both the Rhine and Mosel hands down folks enjoyed Cochem more..."

I don't question your vast experience and the impressions of your clients. Cochem IS lovely.

But why do you insist on posting misinformation about train travel? This habit of yours is becoming pathological.

There are more than 30 trains between Koblenz and Cochem per day - almost every one takes about 40-50 minutes. The fastest trains - the IC trains that make this run - total two per day. Two. And both of them take 37 minutes each way - NOT 20 minutes or anything close to that. So including Cochem as a daytrip from Koblenz adds roughly 1.5 hours to any traveler's itinerary.

It's fine to steer the OP to places you think he or she would like. But it is wrong to alter the truth about getting there. Feel free to retract your non-facts and change your habit of inventing the information you provide... or... show us all which train can make it from Koblenz to Cochem in 20 minutes, and expect an apology from me.

There are more than 30 trains between Koblenz and Cochem per day - almost every one takes about 40-50 minutes>

Not correct according to my bahn.de - every hour at :22 or most hours there are trains Koblenz to Cochem that take 34 minutes - and these are not IC trains but RE trains - not just two trains a day - I suggest you check and then yes correct your misinformation - so I said 20 minutes and it is really 34 minutes - big big deal - Cochem is not a major detour off the main route down the Rhine.

Again there are many more than two trains a day that take just 34 minutes - check it out before giving wrong info and feel free to correct this misleading info you gave.

PQ logic:

Russ' "about 40-50 minutes" is "misleading info."???

NO - it's ball-park figure - that's what "ABOUT" means - for all the RB trains and the RE trains.

But if PQ says Cochem is "20 minutes from Koblenz" (when at the very best it might be 34-35 minutes) well, that huge discrepancy is no "big deal" - just the kind of "helpful" information needed by a visitor who didn't mention Cochem or the Mosel but wants to see the RHINE and who specifically requested help with a destination BETWEEN BINGEN AND STRASBOURG.

There are more than 30 trains between Koblenz and Cochem per day - almost every one takes about 40-50 minutes>

you must be looking at a very different www. bahn.de than I am which has about hourly trains only taking 34 minutes - tell me where I am wrong and you are right - obviously I am making an error - show me.

Lots of folks do not know about Cochem and only the Rhine - I believe Cochem and the Mosel will be far more to their liking so I mention it as a possibility and will do so in these cases - questions are often asked out of a lack of general knowledge about the area.

by a visitor who didn't mention Cochem or the Mosel but wants to see the RHINE and who specifically requested help with a destination BETWEEN BINGEN AND STRASBOURG.>

Well I was mentioning substituting a more romantic to most place for Bingen, a fairly busy city with busy roads and railways running thru it - a nice town but not the dream town that most folks dream of staying in but rarely do - maybe because they do not even know or have heard of it.

And I think that could be helpful info - sorry you do not but you respond how you want and I'll say great info and me as well - more info and options the better.

I was not as you wrongly portray it suggesting Cochem as a stop between Bingen and Strasbourg like you say.

"you must be looking at a very different www. bahn.de than I am which has about hourly trains only taking 34 minutes - tell me where I am wrong and you are right - obviously I am making an error - show me."

Did you read my response above where I asked, "about 40-50 minutes" is "misleading info."???

It's not hard to show you. Just look at ALL the pre-12:00 morning regional trains - all 11 of them. The 6 RB trains are 48-50 minutes. The 5 RE trains are 34-35 minutes. How's your math? Add up the minutes and divide by 11, and you'll see that the average travel time is 42 minutes. So when I said 40-50 minutes, well, 42 is still in between 40 and 50 on my number line yours too, right?

When the average travel time is 42 minutes, I can't for the life of me understand why you think my ball-park guess of 40-50 is "misleading" when you yourself claimed the route took only 20 minutes - and the facts show the average trip takes more than TWICE as long. I suspect math just isn't your trump card.

Do all the maths you want and Cochem is a minor detour off the main rail route from Cologne to Strasbourg - whether it is 34 minutes or 40.

And Russ this is what you said:

<There are more than 30 trains between Koblenz and Cochem per day - almost every one takes about 40-50 minutes>

and this is simply wrong - admit it as you so often dun me to do so and I do. What's wrong with saying you are indeed wrong in what you said was fact.

Fact is you were wrong - people who live in glass houses...

boys!

Dear Op, looking at the map you could stay in any of the places the two above have been discussing, basically the Rhine makes a big arc which encloses the Pfalz wine region and that then starts into Alsace. Just to give you a few alternatives.

Wurzburg is really lovely with a bishop's palace looking down from a crag onto the town and plenty of vinyards.

Idar Oberstein is a must for rock-hounds and some interst for others (probably not then)

Bad Durkheim has the world's largest wine festival and an old salt spa based on a roman baths. Not sure how much is open at any one time and of course the wine festival is only on for two weeks so unless you hit it you miss it.

Stuttgart is out there on the East with two sports car factories to visit

PQ:

Is 25 minutes "about" 30 minutes? Yes.

Is 35 minutes "about" 40 minutes? Yes.

Is 34 minutes "about" 40 minutes? Just about. I guess meticulous rounding off would mean 30 minutes.

So.. where do you find something so terribly "wrong", exactly?

Now then... Is 20 minutes (your estimate, remember?) anywhere close to 35 (or 34) minutes?? No freaking way.

Maybe the meaning of "about" AND your understanding of math are both at the core of your confusion.

Russ - point is we both make mistakes - and we both sincerely try to give the best info we can based on an intense knowledge of the area in general - maybe the minutia could be better done on my part but I am giving info to the best of my knowledge as you are. Here is a bid for peace and try to move on not as adversaries but collaborators.

"Russ - point is we both make mistakes."

Russ DOES make factual errors. When he does, he announces it. Go back through his posts and you will OFTEN see that he has written "OOPS" where he made one.

But I made no mistake here, however desperate you are to dig one up, and you will not get an "oops" from me here. $35 IS "about" $40. 35 minutes IS about 40 minutes. And 34 minutes IS about 35 minutes.

I don't mind anyone pointing out a real mistake of mine, even if it's you, a guy whose mistakes I have only politely called mistakes but really aren't that at all. Isn't it ODD that the misinformation you so often provide makes your suggestions appear more desirable? Real mistakes might do the opposite once in a while...

"It's only 20 minutes from Koblenz to Cochem, so go there instead."

"Saver fare tickets aren't refundable, so buy a railpass instead."

I guess it's too hard to make a convincing case for some ideas if you use the real facts.

"Saver fare tickets aren't refundable, so buy a railpass instead.">

Never said that and you know it. I did say, falsely as it turns out that Saver fares for German trains were non-changeable non-refundable - it turns out they are not changeable but are refundable for a 19 euro cancellation fee - now on a 29 euro fare which is better to mistakingly say they are non-refundable or never mention anything at all about restrictions on refunds?

A 19 euro cancellation fee for a typical 29 euro fare is yes refundable but almost a full forfeit.

I never said since Saver fares are non-refundable buy a railpass - I just point out that if someone wants a fully flexible ticket then a railpass is just that - hop on any train anytime and then if that is the case yes just a few such inter-city train trips would make the pass a good deal. I also point out that such saver fares are sold in limited numbers and to guarantee should be booked far in advance - they could be available right up until near the train but often sell out way early.

I never ever said however: "Saver fare tickets aren't refundable, so buy a railpass instead."> And that is a bald-faced lie and Russ knows it.

"A 19 euro cancellation fee for a typical 29 euro fare is yes refundable but almost a full forfeit."

Why insist on proving that you are the most incorrigible and shameless of prevaricators?

The cancellation fee is €15.
The cancellation fee is €15.
The cancellation fee is €15.

Now I've told you at least 4 times. Read it here:

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/DEU/en/pr...ngs-fare.shtml

And just what is a "typical" €29 fare?

Here's the headline at the DB saver fare page:

"Buy DB Bahn’s ongoing Germany specials from as little as 29 euros!"

In other words, €29 is not "typical" at all - it's the VERY LOWEST possible fare - a "come-on" price - for long-distance (250+ Km) travel - so it's a low-ball price that most buyers probably do not pay because the lowest price sells out fairly quickly. Yet you see that as a perfect example to throw out to justify the total falsehood that saver fares are non-refundable, when someone paying €49 for a saver fare gets €34 refunded, and someone paying €100 for a saver fare in fact gets €85 refunded.

Are you also the PR man who created the euphemism, "Affordable Care Act"?? It's just so tragically inaccurate and deceptive to play these numbers games you play.

"I never ever said however: "Saver fare tickets aren't refundable, so buy a railpass instead."

NO, not in those exact words - that was a paraphrase from me, and an accurate one. You were obviously promoting a railpass (as you routinely do almost irrespective of circumstances) and to bolster your suggestion, you put forth the complete falsehood that saver fares are not refundable.

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...rhine-card.cfm

Exact text of your comments; read:

"If taking a handful of longish train trips like between regions as you seem to do the German (Twin if traveling in pairs) Railpass costs about 29 euros a day and allows complete flexibility to hop any train anytime with a very few exceptions that you will never encounter (ICE Sprinter trains require a supplement and reservation I believe but there are very few on these, mainly designed for commuting business types early in the morning I think)

And the German Pass is 100% valid on KD boats on the Rhine (except dinner cruises) and on the Mosel Koblenz to Cochem.

a series of discounted 29 or 39 euro tickets means booking weeks in advance to get these limited in number ducats that are train-specific and cannot be changed nor refunded - yet the pass allows you to hop any train anytime - just pop into the station and jump on board."

€49 for a saver fare gets €34 refunded, and someone paying €100 for a saver fare in fact gets €85 refunded>

Well if someone is doing more 100 euro for a saver fare - just two of those would be more than a 4-day unlimited travel pass - for 49 euro fares - 3 or 4 of those may cost more than a railpass and have the severe restrictions that come with them.

Thanks for bolstering the call for a pass - I thought 29 euro or 39 euro tickets were routinely available but you, the expert, says no - all the more reason to investigate the cost of a totally flexible pass with savings fares - unless you save a significant amount go for the pass as Russ' figures on how much savings fares tickets can cost - so again if doing more than a few trips look at the pass, something that Russ never ever mentions and then scolds me for doing so.

More info the better - in all my responses I always try to also mention the savings fares and restrictions (something Russ seems never to mention when presenting them as a panacea) and the pass and let the person decide. I do say if the savings is only a few euros go for the flexibility of a pass, which can also be used as valuable urban transport on S-Bahns the same day your use a pass.

PQ: Saver fares "cannot be changed nor refunded."

Patently untrue. No refund = no money back.

If you return a pair of tennis shoes you bought online for $50 plus $10 shipping and you have to ship them back, you get back $50 and have a net loss of $20. Same idea. But THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE SHOES ARE NOT REFUNDABLE. Not that I expect you to understand the logic here.

"Well if someone is doing more 100 euro for a saver fare - just two of those would be more than a 4-day unlimited travel pass"

Nor do I expect you to understand that if someone only needs one good $50 pair of shoes, he should not buy 2, or 3, or 4 pair. If a trip involves a week in Munich, and a week in Berlin, a €100 ticket for that trip to Berlin is a real bargain over the price of a walk-up ticket (€130 min.) or a railpass (€193), and those would indeed be the traveler's only alternatives if he is buying close to the date of travel and the cheaper tickets (€29) have already sold out.

The fact is that there are MANY circumstances where travelers are NOT criss-crossing Germany on several trips and saver fares - even €100 tickets bought close to the travel date - are a great deal.

If the same guy above does a day trip to Potsdam and a day trip to Füssen, he doesn't need a 3-day railpass. He needs a Bayern ticket (€23 single) and a VBB ticket (€7) on top of his €100 saver fare ticket for a total of €130. Recommending a railpass to this guy would be like recommending (3) €50 pairs of shoes, when what he needs 1 $50 pair of shoes, 1 pair of $20 sandals, and a pair of $10 slippers. But I'm sure you don't get that either.

"..if doing more than a few trips look at the pass, something that Russ never ever mentions..."

You'll have no trouble proving this also to be untrue if you wish to search my posts - I have indeed recommended railpasses on occasions when they make good sense.

One situation where I've done that recently involved a short stay with 2 very long trips - and the first long trip was right after a potentially delayed international flight which would have jeopardized catching that train from the airport station. But situations that call for a railpass these days tend to be very few in number, in part because the alternatives to railpasses are so attractive.

"Never ever" is untrue here, PQ, and it is almost always untrue, no matter the topic. If you have a genuine concern for the truth, don't utter such phrases.

Peace! Let's start new... you're a great resource and we both bring different things to the table - thanks for correcting my sincere mistakes.