Powell

A few historical points:

-The peace treaty of WWI, by its extortion, lead directly to WWII.
-The French collapse in WW II is largely attributable to the fact that it lost 15% of its adult male population in WW I. This devastating loss weighed on 1939-40.
-DeGaulle, Jean Moulin, et al were the minority in France. The majority did not collaborate but there were many Vichyites who were as bad or worse than the Nazis.
-Current French hostility to America is ignoble. The first terrorist strike on France itself should see a quick change in that policy. France rides the tiger's back now.

strass

But what should I bring on my trip to Paris? Do they wear jeans over there?

Morganne

How can you say that Powell about French during WWII? Do you know how many people die during WWII and how many French families lost someone they loved???Have you ever lived during a war period? It is a little bit easy to say that, no? And now, you say that French hostility to America is horrible..Who is hostile to who? I'm sorry but living in france, I don't feel hostility against American people...Really, do not listen to people saying that French people are hostile to American, that is totally false. It is not because they do not always agree on everything that they are "histile" to American...Please, revise your judgement!!!

TopMan

Ok, since we are supposedly dishing out the "historical points" let us not mis-characterize the French government's refusal to take part in the Iraq conflict as "hostility" but rather what it was/is; a refusal to participate.

The only people I know who are "hostile" about that decision are a bunch of xenophobic Americans who have decided that renaming "French fries" is some sort of intelligence statement.

Usually, your friends are the only ones who will tell you you are about to step in it...they told us, we didn't listen, and the rest is, as you say, "historical."

lauralamb

I will always remember the words of Lyndon Johnson, who when told by De Gaulle that all American servicemen must leave France, replied "Does that include the ones buried there?". Plus, who was it who said in 1942 "Je souhaite la victoire de l'Allemagne"? - cuddly Marechal Petain of course!

Patrick

"their refusal to participate"?
I thought "participate" would mean to share. I don't think they were ever asked to "share", but rather to send troops and money to support whatever the US wanted to do. I don't think they were ever asked to share in decision making, for example.

My assessment this summer was that most French people may resent the US government (which they often define as the US President), but have no animosity at all towards the American people. They have the sense to know that it really isn't the people who make the decisions. On the other hand, I know masses of Americans who literally HATE the French people for the decision their government made. For example how silly is it to call French Fries -- freedom fries?

strass

Yes, and to attack John Kerry because he speaks French. These people need to grow up. Since when does it reflect badly on someone if they <i>speak French?</i> Good Lord.

BTilke

OK, who ruined my thread? I gather it was either pulled or locked down.

PamSF

On a whole another note. I was at a memorial service for an extremely wealthy and very generous man who dies much to young of AIDS. Many of the people in attendance were old very monied San Franciscans. I overheard someone complaining about Spanish being taught in the schools saying &quot;After all. French is the language of diplomacy&quot;. We're off to France in 5 weeks and hope to bathe in its splendor.

PamSF

whoops let not my spelling errors detract from my intended comment.
Vive la France!

atlcity

Topman: They didn't &quot;just refuse to participate&quot;.Chirac and Villipien aggressively solicited,threatened,and lobbied countries around the world to go against the U.S..They did this to try and hide the fact that they were bought and paid for by Saddam.Villipien lied to &quot;his friend &quot;Colin Powell then sandbagged him in front of the U.N..Allies and friends can disagree and move on but what the French govt. did was betray a country that saved their butts and protected them from the Russians for 50 years. That's why many Americans &quot;hate the French&quot;.

strass

What do French citizens have to do with all of that? How can you &quot;hate&quot; an entire nation of people? It boggles my mind how people can view things in such a black-and-white manner. Our government isn't lily-pure, either.

lucygirl

city, what do you mean &quot;bought and paid for by Saddam&quot; ?? and how was there a betrayal exactly??

your statements are so sweeping that i'm wondering if i'm missing something. i take it i'm not watching the same news programs you are?

sheila

I cannot tell you how disappointed I am. It is at least 6 weeks since an American used the &quot;saved their asses in WW II&quot; line.

Get a grip, you guys. You're letting the side down. We need to be told dail, twice daily, thrice daily. Otherwise we'll forget, and go back to believing that the War of Independence was for our beenfit too

beachbum

&quot;What do French citizens have to do with all of that?&quot;

Maybe because, under a representative form of government, the people are the government, and the government is the people. That many, both in the US and France, have disconnected the two may say something about what's really going on with government.

atlcity

Lucy: It's real simple,BRIBES and CONTRACTS.I don't hate the French people,we've traveled to France 3 times and love it. I will not go back until the Chirac govt. is gone.Others can do as they please.

clairobscur

Though I don't think this board is able to handle a reasonnable political discussion (way too much BS will be posted without the posters being called on that, there are way better boards for this), some quick comments.

-There are a number of reason why France was defeated in 1940, I'm not going to list them, but the fact she lost a large % of the adult male population during WWI isn't one. Plainly because Germany also lost a large % of the male population in WWI and wasn't defeated in 1940.

-There has already been islamist terrorist strikes in France. Islamism and terrorism didn't appear on 9/11.

-There was plenty of reasons why the french government was opposed to this war. Stating &quot;that was because Chirac and Villepin were bought&quot; is exactly as smart a comment as saying &quot;Bush and Powell wanted a war only in order to make money from the Iraki oil&quot;

strass

Well, when a president wins an election by such an incredibly narrow margin, as ours did, it's hard to say that his administration &quot;is&quot; the people. Yes, it's interesting that many people have disconnected the two.

Michel_Paris

Interesting how people can pick out of the air historical events that support their argument, but ignore others that would refute it...and this, by the way, applies to both sides of the US - French argument.

For example, if you search the US National Archives, you will find documents that say the during the War of Independence, French support was CRITICAL to the success of the War...hmm... Then, from the other side, we find the yes, the French do have large financial (military sales) with the previous Iraq government...hmm...but then US did supply Saddam with arms when he was fighting our common enemy, Iran...hmmm...but there was a percentage of the Frnehc population that went along with the Germans in WWII...and on and on and on...who's right???

So, instead of saying all the French are bad or that Bush is bad, perhaps the reality is a little grayer...maybe we should say that at this time the French are pursuing a different strategic path than the US...and leave it at that...if they were sending soldiers to fight against the US, that would be a different story.

Let's all try to have an open mind...believe it or not, there are TWO sides to this argument, and believe it or not, neither side is completely right...

The plague of current politics and public opinion is the false assumption that there is absolute right and wrong, and easy answers to difficult questions. A two minute CNN report makes none of us understand what is going on in Afghanistan...Please don't fall for the simple, even though it is easy.

As for Europe, count the number of times that France and Poland have been involved in wars or been conquered in the last 150 years....how many wars would you want your country to be personally (i.e. in my own back yard, deaht and destruction) involved in before you say...let's make a bigger effort to avoid wars since in the end, we all lose.

strass

Nice post, Michael; thanks.