Relocating Advice--ideas?
 

This is *sort of* a travel-related post: I'm brainstorming possibilities for relocation, and I've come up with a list of some qualities I'd like. I was hoping that you Fodorites would be able to help! Can you think of any city that, in your opinion, matches the first 5 qualities? Bonus points if they meet all 10...

And the cities can be anywhere in the world, though I'd prefer the US and Western Europe (esp. Eng/Span/French-speaking)

Here are the qualities:

1) Population of 750,000 to 4 million people, give or take a few hundred thousand. (within city limits)

2) Tolerant, open, hopefully friendly people

3) Diverse population (ethnically)

4) Easy access to some natural space--near mountains, or forest, or something; also lots of green in the city

5) Walkable--don't have to drive to get everywhere; easy to walk around the city.
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6) A good amount of cultural institutions--libraries, museums, etc.

7) An international presence--not an isolated feeling

8) A pretty city--nice architecture, streets

9) Low(-ish) cost of living

10) Mild winters


Do these ring any bells? I'd love to hear your ideas! Also, if you think any of this is unrealistic or stupid, please set me straight.

except for #'s 9 and 10 - Edinburgh.

Except number 3 and it's growing on that also...Valencia, Spain.

Sorry, I meant to say 3 and 4 (not too much green in Valencia, certainly) :)

I've never been to either, but maybe Portland or Seattle (not sure about population). I was going to say my hometown of Dallas, but then there are a few boxes it doesn't fit (like population and being walkable).

To put a sense of realism into your planning:
11) Where a long-term visa (with a possibility to earn a living) is fairly easy to obtain for one's nationality.
This really excludes almost the whole of Western Europe, unless
a) you also hold a passport from an EU country, or are married to someone who has;
b) you are so wealthy that you can easily qualify as a person of independent means;
c) you hold skills and experience in a specialist field that is in much demand and can easily meet work permit requirements.

Hi I,

Paris, why did you have to ask?

((I))

Amsterdam.

But I hope you do realize that if you're a US citizen you can't very easily, if at all, just up and relocate to Western Europe unless you have dual citizenship, a company sponsoring you to go work there, or a gazillion dollars.

LOL, I do realize that relocation isn't that simple. But this is nothing immediate--I'm considering this for the very long-term. Since I'm just entering the job market, I'm hoping I could find an international or American multi-national company that might relocate me? Is that a pipe dream?

(I also may go back to school for a degree in IR, in which case living abroad may be likely)

A "lowish" (whatever that means) cost of living in A-dam, Paris, etc., etc.,,,,as compared to where do you live now, Imelda72????

Or St. Cirq is mistaken about needing gazillions of dollars

Some people just get a rug and sell junk to tourists on the street.

Dukey--I currently live in NYC, so almost anything will be a decrease in cost of living. By low-ish I mean not NYC or San Francisco (though that's on the list), but it doesn't have to be Shelbyville, KY either.

Ira--Oh yes, Paris is def. top of the list.

Any other suggestions?

Geneva. Especially since you mention trying to get relocated by an international company. Towns along Lac Leman such as Lausanne, Vevey, Montreux fit everything on your list except 9) low cost of living. It's expensive, but it's REALLY nice there. You'd commute by train into Geneva for your job.

San Francisco, like a glove ... well, except for #9!

LucieV - I agree with you - San Francisco meets every criterion except #9. You get what you pay for ... (um, sometimes)

Portland, Oregon.

But my feeling is, you really prefer Europe. If you can do it, go for it!

Did you just graduate from college? How old are you and what type of job are you interested in? The reason I ask is I know quite a few college grads from the past couple years that always wanted to live in Europe but cannot get a job even with a US company. Most of the companies seem to want someone to live overseas that can provide them with the experience and problem solving that they cannot find in the general population of that company.
I fly overseas everyweek and talk to quite a few business people and they usually state in the course of conversation that they are not interested in someone without experience and /or degree in what they need. However good luck with your search!

Glasgow fits all but 9 and 10

Toulouse fits all but 2

Pau?

Except No. 9, Zürich fits the bill completely.
Assuming you get a job locally, the average level of earnings makes Point 9 rather moot.

As to long-term visa, a job contract without definite termination date assures you a permanent residence permit in Switzerland.

Imelda, just wanted to put in a nod of encouragement. It IS possible to find a company that will relocate you (at least temporarily). I too recently graduated university and my company has moved me to Scotland for five months (not long-term I know, but I'm hoping it will lead to a longer-term relocation later on). I also know several people who I graduated university with who are now working in Paris and Prague. You might try applying with an oil company if you are interested in working in Scotland, Norway, or the Netherlands in particular (though then you most likely will be living in a bit smaller of a place). But I do know that a lot of the oil companies move their employees overseas for several years after about 6 months of employment.

A couple of questions - do you speak another language? If you do (such as French or German in particular) that will make you an attractive candidate for a European position. Also, do you have any international experience? (For instance, did you do an exchange while in university?). Lastly, what is your degree in?

It's not true that international relocation is only for citizens of European countries, the super-exceptionally qualified or workers in multinationals.

The British Highly Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP)- see ukvisas.gov.uk - in spite of its misleading name, offers anyone from anywhere, with degree-level education or equivalent skills and a reasonable history of career and salary advancement, an automatic and open work permit.

Other than wth an HSMP, it's virtually impossible for a non-European to get a job, unless transferred within a corporation or working for his own government or forces. A European company applying for a work permit (and this applies in Norway and Switzerland as well as in the EU) for a non-European has to:
- demonstrate that the non-European has skills that can't be found anywhere in Europe, and
- show evidence the company has seriously tried recruiting throughout Europe

Since you can't realistically join Citibank on condition you work in Zurich, the HSMP is the only way a non-European wanting to move here can easily choose where to live. That obviously means Britain, of course. But would you want to work anywhere with more xenophobic immigration policies?

FlUK is off base on two counts: first, he oversimplifies (again) the ease of getting permission to work in the UK. Having a degree from any university anywhere hardly means the doors to the UK will be flung wide open to all comers. We know several highly skilled workers with degrees from good universities who found the HSMP program far more complex and arduous in reality than FlUK suggests.

Also, that "Other than wth an HSMP, it's virtually impossible for a non-European to get a job, unless transferred within a corporation or working for his own government or forces"--also untrue. I've been offered jobs in Switzerland, Germany and Belgium with employers more than willing (and able) to get the necessary work permits--and the employers were not US companies, government orgs or part of the armed forces.

>- demonstrate that the non-European has skills that can't be found anywhere in Europe

That´s usually just a formality but our dear friends on the island, not quite free of xenophoby themselves, like to make an issue of it.
The company simply needs to write a three-liner letter saying that the candidate XY is the best and others are less qualified. They don´t need to "demonstrate" anything.

My employer in Switzerland had a huge lot of employees from the whole world and hot the least problem getting a work permission for any of them. However, for that you have to get a job offer first.

Well Amsterdam meets all the rquirements to a certain level. Do not expect to be able to afford to live in the centre of Amsterdam, the Jordaan or anywhere like that. If you can already speak French and Spanish you will soon pick up Dutch, even though it is a Germanic language. But in the meantime you can get by just fine with English.
Nike Europe HQ is in Hilversum not far from Amsterdam. They employ loads of US citizens. And have a (until recently it was the only one in NL) Starbucks in their HQ.

Hi, imelda,

in the UK, cambridge and bristol would fit your bill pretty well. we met some folks from cambridge in teh irish pub in Madrid, and they comprised 2 irish, 2 french, I South african, 2 spanish]

they were all working in IT.

if you could get the right qualifications, the UK scheme mentioned by the OP would get you into teh UK, and thus europe.

regards, ann

Imelda,
is it not too private a question to ask - what is your specialty? there are big companies that hire specialists from around the world, but not in any city for any area of expertise.

Vienna - except for the mild winters part.

I want to thank you all for these great suggestions. It's also good to hear some of the realities of moving to the EU.

I work in development for nonprofits, currently for an international org., so I'm not too worried about finding a city with the right industry. Also, a *lot* of my friends (recent college grads like me) are moving abroad, so it does seem realistic to me. Erin- I have lived in Europe, I do speak French and Spanish, and I studied IR and English in school, which I hope would help me.

I should mention that I am equally interested in American and European cities; I have seen more of Europe, so I may sound biased towards it.

Let me reaffirm my thanks for these great suggestions for cities I never would have thought of, but seem great (Amsterdam, Valencia, Vienna, etc.). Also let me reaffirm that this relocation would not be in the near future.

Please keep coming with your ideas!! (And please chime in if you agree with anyone else's idea, too)

Hmmm. Vancouver, Canada fits most of your criteria - although Mandarin or
Punjabi might go further than French
or Spanish.

The HSMP rules have been hugely simplified.

Degree; English as she is spoke; being young and earning a decent salary will almost certainly get you in.


Have you tried any of the International not for profits? Oxfam? Cafaid? Christian Aid? Lepra? there are thoosands of them....

Sheila- I definitely have considered international nonprofits! That's exactly what I'm hoping for, if I were to move abroad. That said, international NGOs are harder to apply to than local nonprofits, so as a recent grad, I may have to wait on those. Which is fine with me!

Cheers on the Vancouver suggestion, llamalady. Though I've never been, I've a lot of respect for Canada, and think it could be nice to live there (despite the weather). Does Montreal fit my list at all?

I second the Geneva suggestion. Non-profits? NGO's? There are so many that have their international HQs in GVA and the official language is generally English

We have just returned (to the UK) from Vancouver and would deascrivbe it strangely enough as an addictive comfort blanket!

On arrival we were a little disappointed - probably on reflection because we had read the hype. We have travelled to stunning places in the past and Vancouver seemed a little bland.

Then we sunk into the place and the more we stayed the more we realised what the point was - we found that simple logistics are so straight forward. Where else in the world can you live 5 miles from a world city centre and drive to work with holdups at 8am?

Eating out was very cheap, very good quality and vary varied. I could go on for a long time about its long term virtues.

Having returned - we have been able to put the experience into context - it may not have been the most memorable trip we have had but it is THE place in the world we would relocate to - unfortunately it is just too far for us!

PS I you like the sun cross it off your list - the weather is nearly as bad as Manchester, UK

Imelda

Have a look at Birdlife International

Imelda, Montreal has many virtues, but a mild winter (#10) is not one of them. I don't think its economy is exactly booming either.

Mark, for the most part, the quality of life in Vancouver is very high. As for the weather, you missed the glorious two-month summer period that just started about 2 days ago. From October to July, you are more or less correct, although certain areas have much more sun than others and there are spurts of beautiful weather throughout the year.

In Vienna you could apply to the UN with your profile.

Barcelona ticks all. To me its a very organic city (between the wooded mountains and beach in a valley basin), tree-lined streets, beautiful.
You'll be able to speak spanish and english, with your knowledges of french you'll be able to pick up catalan pretty easily (Barcelona speaks Spanish and Catalan)

Ola from Portugal! I came here in 2003 to explore living abroad and I'm still here.
Consider Lisbon in your search. The architecture and green spaces of Lisbon rivals Paris (in the late 1700's it was rebuilt in the Parisian style). Mass transit is excellent and rents are cheap in comparison to NYC and SF. Cultural centers and events abound, but it can be difficult to get a line on exactly where and when they are happening.
Portugal's most significant drawback is its very conservative attitude toward non-English speaking foreigners, and minorities.
English is the official second language of Portugal, so a university educated person can easily earn Euros by teaching English as an independent contractor. The climate is mild and the countryside beautiful. The people are friendly and violent crime is very rare.