There is packing and unpacking and checking in and out. Twenty minutes if you have one pair of underwear and a rusty razor, the elevator comes quickly, and there is no front of you at the front desk.

Walking, cabbing, busing, or twerking to and from the bus station or train station twice. Add 30 seconds per pot hole,

Buying a ticket and waiting time for the bus or train. Scoop homeless person up so there is room to wait.

The actual train or bus ride. Rarely it is the highlight of my trips. And you are assuming it arrives on time and that the duration is less than 2 hours.

Flying of course, adds at least two more hours.

Tomorrow. Shampoo. Rinse. Repeat.

European potholes are elegant. I consider them doorways to history.

(42) This is about where the real fun usually begins - pertinent posts have more or less covered the subject at hand, sandralist has contributed the usual insults, misunderstandings have been cleared up for the most part, latecomers will add some more although may not have read all that preceded so it can get a bit repetitious. I usually like this part best. Good one, colduphere! And true!

European potholes are elegant. I consider them doorways to history.

Which is not much different than a stairway to heaven.

One thing I always think about is that young folks on a budget who want to wander around Europe may not understand how expensive it is to change venues every day or so. The train fares, the hotel fees...it all adds up.

<It seems to take people an awfully long time to pack their suitcases around here. Packing suitcases and checking out of hotels should not take longer than 20 minutes.>

Exactly and the journey is part of the trip to us.

From moment I woke up this morning to moment I went out of it took me 16 min.

Including packing, loo, shower (shampoo I am not bald)
No breakfast

Mvg.

You showered in the loo? Well no wonder.

Ha, MmePerdu. Love it. So true. It's like people getting loose and loopy around 0100 when you've been hanging around together all evening.

I'm going to chime in and appreciate julies original comment, without needing to read every riposte.

First time to city: run around like crazy person till I drop. 5th or 6 th time to place: choose a few things to do and spend more time enjoying the culture. With good planning I can get alot in in a few days -- I've had 2 5-6 day trips to Switzerland. One was 2 nights Luzerne, one night Lugano, 2 nights Interlaken and one night Zurich. Another was a base in Montreux with day trips to Vevey, Gruyeres, Gstaad, Zermatt and then last night in Geneva. The train rides were relaxing and we did not feel rushed. But we weren't checking off sites either - just enjoying the scenery and the villages... I guess I do have a hard time just relaxing, sitting in a cafe if I'm in a place with alot to see. I have this timetable in my head. But as I get older, and go back to familiar places, I want to change that MO.

I occasionally give slow-down advice, but:
a. It's usually in response to someone's question of something like, "So, what do you thing of my proposed itinerary?"
b. I add, "That's just my take, but it's your time and your money so do what you think is best."

I get it that some people seem quite adamant about giving that advice even when they're not asked for it. I always figure the recipient is free to ignore it. I especially get a chuckle when someone says, "I'm planning on visiting sites A, B, and C in Milan. Any other sites I should visit when there?" And the response is: "Don't go to Milan."

Sometimes, how you say things matters as much as the substance of what you are saying. This board, while having lots of good advice, also has very poor manners. Still, if you can wade through the occasional rudeness, you can benefit from the experience of others.

I went on one of those whirlwind package tours (7 countries in 19 days on a bus) when I was 18, so when folks ask about those kinds of trips, I will share with them that I don't find that kind of trip to be the best way to see Europe. I've had that experience, and I think sharing that with folks asking pertinent itinerary questions, and who haven't had that experience, is a good thing. But, one has to be careful not to get too dogmatic about matters of personal preference. There are some folks who truly like stay in a new location every night, so while I might give my opinion, I recognize that they are free to ignore it.

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Very interesting perspectives from the 'regulars' who generously share experiences / opinions on this forum.

How ironic that those who have shouted me down in the past for recommending coach tours are now saying it's actually okay to blitzkrieg Europe. Make up your minds, hey?
Some people just don't have the time to dig in to Pienza for a month and 'live like a local'. Some don't want to. Some are fearful of DIY travel and prefer the security of a bus tour - and some of these bus tours spend just one night in a destination. Oh the horror. The disdainful attitudes are really quite mystifying when you consider not everyone has the time or the money or even the inclination to 'slow travel'.

"Make up your minds, hey?"

They have. Some slow trav posters are waiting for this thread to disappear. Be forgotten. Some haven't shown up at all.

It's a tactic. Rope a dope. Wait for us to leave and then hit the new posters with the slow trav advice again.

We must not be fooled. Stay alert. We may have to work in shifts.

Hurrah for julies!

No trip that consists of nothing but one-night stays is going to be fun. And when I see people say they want to go to Madrid, London, Berlin, Rome, and Athens, of course I cringe.

But with a rational travel plan that minimizes time on trains and plains, a two night stay in a major city is just fine. Not for every city, but sometimes.

The first time I saw Rome it was one a one-week trip to Italy where we flew into Rome and flew out of Venice. We spent two nights in Rome, so we really only had one day of sightseeing. We saw the Vatican, Sistine Chapel, Coliseum, Spanish Steps, and the Pantheon. Now I'm sorry, but these are the major sights of Rome, and they can be seen in a day. Does the city deserve more? Sure. But if pressed for time, spending a full day in Rome in moving along is a great idea, especially since Rome is not a particularly pleasant place to visit.

The important thing to remember and avoid is travel time. I wouldn't advise a long trip just to spend two nights in Rome. But if visiting a number of cities in the area, better to spend two nights in Rome than none at all.

I've been to Europe a lot, say 20 or 25 times, and I rarely spend more than four or five nights in one place. I simply don't enjoy it if I do.

What a great example of perfectly legitimate differences between travelers! FHurdle said, “We saw the Vatican, Sistine Chapel, Coliseum, Spanish Steps, and the Pantheon. Now I'm sorry, but these are the major sights of Rome, and they can be seen in a day…. [If] visiting a number of cities in the area, better to spend two nights in Rome than none at all …. Rome is not a particularly pleasant place to visit..”

Well, that’s not MY list of “the major” sights of Rome, I’m not convinced that a 2-night stay is better than nothing, and I found Rome a very pleasant, dynamic, and interesting place to visit!

➢ My list of Rome’s “major” sites would also include the Borghese, the Forum, the Capitoline Museums and Piazza del Campidoglio, San Pietro in Vincoli, the Quattro Fontane with its Borromini and Bernini chapels, the Piazza Navona, Trastevere, and any number of other sites. And even if I agreed with the offered list, I should note that it took me nearly 8 hours to see the Vatican Museums at what I considered a breakneck speed. ;-)

➢ I’m glad that FHurdle was able to see what s/he considered the “major” sites in one day. I’m glad I had time (about 5 days) to see what I considered the “major” sites, along with a few sites that I considered secondary (like the Spanish Steps).

➢ Since it is likely to be easier to get to Rome’s international airport from just about anywhere than it is to get to just about anywhere else near Rome, I’m not sure that I agree that it’s better to give Rome a token visit, if it means shortchanging a place that you will otherwise be visiting (or near someplace you will be visiting) that isn’t so easy to reach.

Again, to each his/her own – what works for one traveler, at one time, might not work at all for someone else at another time. And really, isn’t it a good thing that we all travel for different reasons, with different interests, at different paces, and with different conclusions about how “pleasant” a visit is? I certainly think so!

@ colduphere: "We may have to work in shifts." -- I don't mind working in PJs or sweats, but honestly, I'm not going to scan Fodor's in a shift -- no way, no how -- and I, at least, am a woman who actually does, occasionally, wear a shift! I can't imagine that many of the men who are likely to be involved are willing to wear shifts... but I could be wrong! Maybe you could ease up on the dress code idea?

I'm lost now.

Is the consensus that none of us should give any kind of advice whatsoever on the grounds that somebody won't agree with it?

Kja , it is a good one ! (What is a shift as a garment ?)

PJ : porte-jarretelles ?

Well if you don't learn something here every day, or maybe every second day to be safe.

I accepted Kja must be on to something but I had no idea what it was until I skipped by all the verbs and reached number ten on the noun list:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shift

I've never seen a word with so many meanings.

"I've never seen a word with so many meanings."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/set

<<It seems to take people an awfully long time to pack their suitcases around here. Packing suitcases and checking out of hotels should not take longer than 20 minutes

I am equally stumped by the "it takes a half day to switch hotels". I thought I was the only one here who doesn't do carry-on to Europe, so what takes so long to pack?

And this advice ignores that day tripping from a city also takes time to leave the hotel, wait for transportation - and return the same way.

Or do slow travelers also assumed people should not take short day trips from a base??

>>I am equally stumped by the "it takes a half day to switch hotels".<<

My guess is, and I could be wrong, that people mean it takes a half day to change sites, not hotels. And in that sense, it's pretty reasonable general advice.

Cold, you ought to check out "scan".

Here are the first two definitions:

1. to glance at or over or read hastily:
to scan a page.
2. to examine the particulars or points of minutely; scrutinize.

<<I’m not convinced that a 2-night stay is better than nothing,>>

I really don't get that attitude you see a lot on FOdors, that if you don't want to or can't spend x amount of days in a place, you shouldn't go. ANy place you want to see is worth spending 2 days in IMO, if that's what you have. Why not? That doesn't even make sense. IN fact, when I do spend a lot of time in a city, usually it's the first couple of days when you do the things most important to you, and some of the remaining time is second rate.

And I'm really sick of people telling someone they should spend their entire vacation time in Paris and never go anywhere else, even when they have said they want to.

And yes, I have seen numerous people on Fodors tell people that it takes a half day to change hotels even within the same city. I don't get that, either, nor the hours of packing up. When I stay in Paris for 7 days or more, I often change hotels just because I want to be in a different neighborhood and also hedge my bets or try different hotels. I don't run all over the city on the metro for hours at night to go to restaurants, for one thing, I stay in the neighborhood and I like to experience different areas. Would be the same if I were going to spend that long in other cities, I just haven't. It really does not take me a half day to change hotels, it takes a couple hours including packing.

And I am not one of these carryon only people, either, but packing up once you are on vacation isn't that hard or time consuming as you have all the stuff you are taking, you just put it back in your suitcase. When packing for the trip at home, I can take longer by deciding what I really want to take, maybe switching stuff out, etc.

<<it takes a half day to change sites.

I recently posted here for advice on an Antwerp hotel and I mentioned that I was traveling there from Delft. I was told that this type of travel is not good – that it wastes a half-day, etc.

It is a two hour train ride from Delft to Antwerp. I could do that total transfer in about four hours probably – which is hardly half a day. And, if I had to return to Delft, that would also take over four hours of travel time .

People do travel in and out of different airports which reduces the need to backtrack.

Above, IMD used the time to get to and ride the hotel elevator in his travel calculations, which ignores that one must take time to ride the elevator regardless of where they are going. Unless we are saying that too takes so much time and one should travel so slow they don't even leave the hotel!

If I'm trying to be efficient in my city changes assuming a 2-4 hour train ride between, I usually do something like this:
Pack the night before (15 minutes at most)
Eat breakfast at hotel. (8 AM)
Head to train station. (8:30 AM)
Take train ride. (varies, of course)
Arrive at destination (10 AM to noon or so).
Taxi or walk to hotel (15 minutes)
Ready to start touring the new city anywhere from 11 AM to 1 PM, and I will have at least 10 hours to do so. This could be increased further by starting earlier and eating breakfast on the train.

Alternatively:
Pack in the morning (15 minutes).
Leave luggage at hotel.
Tour current city.
Return around 7 PM or later (so I have at least 10 hours touring that day if I want it).
Head to train station.
Take train ride. Maybe eat on train, either in diner car or with packed provisions.
Arrive in new city around 9 PM to midnight. Head out for dinner depending on timing and whether I ate on the train.

I read some of these posts and I wonder what kind of clock some of you live by. What style of travel are you willing to endure?

My days of missing a meal are over. Three to four meals a day are the only way my body knows how to stay safe, focused, and energized.

Hotel check out is normally 11 AM. Most people don't get up at 5 AM like I do. If you only have eight hours of light after breakfast (I <b>must</b> eat breakfast before I do any physical activity), four hours to change hotels is not out of the ordinary, hence half a day. Some people like to debate semantics until the thread takes forever to load. Then they want to beat an extra hour or two to death, as if checking in before 3 PM is the norm.

I love to change hotels, and experience my favorite rooms. I've been celebrating this process for decades. I love to compare and contrast, see old friends, and I love to experience different neighborhoods. No matter what you spend on a room, there is no guarantee that your room will be available at precisely the time you show up. If you're taking a cab or a car service, fifteen minutes can easily turn into forty-five. There are some things in travel you cannot control. It's always smarter and safer to allow some cushion in the timing.

Some people talk about time on this board in a very loose manner, empty of all specifics and details, which take time to type for each and every query. Sure, it only takes one hour to get to Varenna by train from Milano Centrale, but even if I land at MXP at 8:30 AM, I rarely get to Varenna before 3 PM, which is fine because that's check-in time. If you're like me and absolutely refuse to invite stress and rushing into your travel days, and you avoid gambling on the edges of your body's clock, safely moving around with luggage takes time.

I am a meticulous packer. Many items in my luggage are expensive. A woman who respects that clothing is an art form simply doesn't just throw her garments into her luggage in any old manner.

I get that some of you have never elevated your style much beyond your college backpacking years. Well, there's plenty of simple advice on these boards for those who can pack in ten minutes or less. For a traveler like me, that advice is useless.

Willit - that's amazing.

Apersuader - you're the legal mind here but aren't those contradictory? How can anyone learn to speak English if this stuff happens? Dammit - something's wrong.

>>I recently posted here for advice on an Antwerp hotel and I mentioned that I was traveling there from Delft.<<

I was speaking generally, not granular.

"How can anyone learn to speak English if this stuff happens?"

You tell us. Isn't English your second language?

<<I get that some of you have never elevated your style much beyond your college backpacking years.

Bwahaha.

We all know plenty of people who look good while traveling who don't take 3 hours to pack!

<i><font color=#555555>"We all know plenty of people who look good while traveling who don't take 3 hours to pack!"</font></i>

I don't know anyone on this board who carries over $10,000 worth of electronics when they travel, so I'm not silly enough to expect anyone to take three hours to pack. However, show me pictures of the folks who take ten minutes to pack, and I'll determine if they look good. I'm certainly not taking your word for it.

@ pariswat: PJs = pajamas, that is, a 2-piece nightwear set that has a top and a bottom. I had to look up “porte-jarretelles”, and if the translation I found is correct (suspender belt or garter belt), well, all I can say is – once again -- vive la difference! If somebody wants to scan Fodor’s (according to either of the definitions that apersuader65 has correctly noted) wearing only porte-jarretelles – hey, go for it! Just please, PLEASE -- don’t tell us! :-O

A shift, as colduphere and others have since learned, is a specific style of dress that a woman might wear (without going into all the niceties that follow from LGTB considerations, but NOT the more generic “dress” meaning attire). I didn't mean to send anyone scurrying to a dictionary -- I had no idea that the meaning was obscure! As I said, I have some shirts. That said, no reason not to expand anyone's vocabulary, right? :-) But I'm still not going to put one on anytime I look at, or respond to, Fodor's posts! ;-)


Perhaps a bit more on point – I find it fascinating that a thread that began with juries’s very useful question about whether we might be a bit more open to different approaches to travel has, once again, turned into a series of defiant defenses of one’s own way of travel and rejections or dismissals of the value of other ways -- AND a series of arguments about how to give advice. BYHs, JMO.

I have some shiFts...

a thread that began with juLies’s very useful question

I do not like autocorrect!

@kja - and you might wear a shift under a shift. In fact that's what I thought you meant...

Nevertheless this thread was quite useful and has funny sides.

We may shift towards another subject...

I haven't seen much defiance. I see more diversity of thought and need.

My sister and I have been taking trips together since we were teenagers. We have so much fun together. When we were younger, we did the cram itinerary, mostly in Italy, where it's so easy to do. About the time we hit 30, we started to slow down. I don't think of us as slow travelers. We can only plan a 15 night trip + 2 travel days once a year. We still like to visit multiple places sometimes, but our minimum is typically 5 nights per place.

We also enjoy hotel hopping, and we can afford to stay in better hotels because we split the cost. Still, I try to keep the room expense under 450 Euro per night. On our recent trip to France, we stayed in 4 different locations; 3 around Lake Annecy and 1 night in Lyon. The change in location averaged about a 40 minute drive, and by the time we packed, checked out, drove, checked-in, and unpacked, I think it's fair to say a half day went by.

We are both foodies, so we seek out celebrity chefs as one of many travel highlights. I typically wear a Paul Stuart suit with tie and dress shoes to dinner, but my sister is more of a fashion hound. She doesn't like to wear the same thing twice, and I know she stresses while packing her Manolo Blahniks.

We enjoy bringing home gifts to family and friends. We researched the best chocolate shops in that part of France, and between the two of us, we brought home 10 boxes of chocolate from 3 different shops. We're also big fans of European glass, ceramics, and tools for the kitchen. We never leave France without several jars of jam. The farmer's market in Annecy was incredible.

If people can pack in 20 minutes, I say good for them. We can't do that. My sister starts packing the night before we leave. She travels with bubble wrap and Bounty towels, and she has a very clever way of protecting her purchases in her luggage. She's taught me everything I know about packing. The artful wrapping on all our chocolate boxes remained undisturbed, and with a Bounty towel carefully folded to pad each box's interior, the delicate chocolates did not budge while the luggage was handled.

The more you travel, the more you learn what matters to you.