I do wish people would get the names right, and I'm not talking about Macedonia. The people arriving in Greece are not refugees. They were refugees when they left Syria (those who are Syrian) and arrived in Turkey/Lebanon/Jordan. But when they left a safe country they ceased to be refugees, and became economic migrants. They did not have to escape Turkey to save their lives, and they are trying to reach Germany and Sweden (instead of Greece, Croatia, Hungary, Austria etc.) because they expect free housing, education and health care.

Wow.. just wow..

"they expect free housing , education and health care"

No.. that is not the motivation.. the motivationh for most of them is to escape living in a war /violence zone.

Some of them are likely better educated then you anyways Thursday.. they are not all sheep herders you know!!!

<<The people arriving in Greece are not refugees>>
That is not correct !
Both the EU and the UNO officially recognize people coming to Europe from Syria,and Afghanistan as refugees, separating them from all the others who are considered to be economic migrants.

I attempted to post this with links and got stopped by the periodic European board bug. I am trying again without the links, but have provided dates and titles for the articles instead.

@Justineparis:
You know nothing about my level of education. In any case, ad hominem attacks do nothing to advance your argument - not that "wow" is an argument.

With respect to the "free housing" etc., a New York times article quoted a Syrian migrant saying exactly that. From a more recent article dated September 12 "Empathy and angst in a German city transformed by migrants":

"Not all are happy with the attention and resources dedicated to non-Germans, inside and outside the school, Ms. Iffarth said. Those granted asylum in Germany get an apartment, health insurance, a language course and 399 euros (about $450) a month. Many in the neighborhood are unemployed and have problems of their own. “We fail to integrate the losers in our society, and then we ask them to integrate the refugees,” she said."

There are similar quotes in other articles:

"Mr. Haile said he had nothing against Italy. But throughout his ordeal, it was the dream of reaching Scandinavia, famous among migrants for generous welfare and asylum policies, that kept him going."

And for the impact on European countries, see:
November 16 article titled "Nordic countries overwhelmed by migrants retreat from generous traditions"

Do you really think that the arrival of a million people, not to mention the large families waiting to follow the first arrivals, is going to be positive? When they are from a dissimilar and largely alien culture, with little respect for women? Have you been to Syria (I have)? The experience of France with North African immigrants does not suggest that they are going to integrate well.

See: December 20 article titled "Norway offers migrants a lesson in how to treat women"

This is starting to look like the third Islamic invasion of Europe.

@clausar: do you have a citation for that?

The UNHCR website says: "Migrants, especially economic migrants, choose to move in order to improve the future prospects of themselves and their families. Refugees have to move if they are to save their lives or preserve their freedom." People who have already reached a safe country fall into the first category.

My impression is that a large proportion of these migrants are young men. Why are they not staying home and fighting ISIS?

thursdayd

I am a volunteer helping refugees in Athens, we are in contact with the high commissioner for refugees on a daily basis and i know what the advice is, that the Greek state is following.

There are women with infants, children that have lost their parents in the war... you impression that refugees are your men is simply WRONG !

You can sit on your sofa and and make all the comments that you like, you have the privilege NOT having to escape from bombs falling on your house, or jihadists killing your family.

I did not say that all the migrants are young men, just that a lot of them are. If I were in these peoples' situation i would be doing the same thing, but that does not make it a good idea for Europe, which is no doubt why the EU is now bribing Turkey to try to stem the flow.

Last I checked no one was bombing refugees in Turkey. Jihadists, on the other hand, are killing people all over the place, and as long as ISIS can claim to be a caliphate because it controls territory, it will continue to attract recruits.

THURSDAYSD, I hear you. All you have to do is check out blogs/documentaries/eyewitness accounts of the migrant situation in Europe on youtube to understand why potential tourists are concerned. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe. Muslim patrols are walking the streets of East London.

" My impression is that a large proportion of these migrants are young men"


You said it...its not correct.

Your "impressions" are not facts, but you seem to be presenting them as facts.

My sister in law and nieces live in Germany, they are German( not expats), they have welcomed immigrnats into there small town happily.

In Germany post secondary education is free to all citizens who qualify ( grades) so no German citizen is being denied education because of the refugees. They might have issues they would have regardless, like any country there are drug addicts, mentality ill and homeless...cant blame refugees for that,,,but some narrow minded folks love to do so , not accepting responsibilty for their problems and needing to find scapegoats.

All you have to do is check out blogs/documentaries/eyewitness accounts of the migrant situation in Europe on youtube to understand why potential tourists are concerned. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe. Muslim patrols are walking the streets of East London.>>

can you post some links to these claims, please, late day?

the only reference to muslim patrols in East London that I could find was to some misguided men who tried to set one up in 2013 and have since apologised:

http://news.sky.com/story/1578644/ex...-sharia-videos

when I looked for some support for the allegation about Sweden being the "rape capital" of Europe [though how a country can be a capital is a bit of a mystery], i did find some articles, though they all seemed to be taken from the same article, which i thought frankly islamophobic:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/23/sw...t-japan-didnt/

A rather more balanced view is set out here by the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19592372

thursdaysd - I usually agree with you but in this case, I find it very hard to separate refugees from economic migrants in the way you seem to. There is, for example, an elderly man, the grandfather of a Syrian family who live in Devon, who is stuck in a park in Turkey. He is homeless, disabled and ill. They want nothing more than to bring him to the UK so they can look after him, and to our everlasting shame, at the moment they are not allowed to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-35133885

To my mind he is a refugee fleeing persecution, not an economic migrant.

ann - I'll grant you the elderly man as a refugee. Will you grant me the young men insisting on reaching Scandinavia or Germany as economic migrants?

ann - I'll grant you the elderly man as a refugee. Will you grant me the young men insisting on reaching Scandinavia or Germany as economic migrants?>>

thursdaysd - some, most probably. But that does not mean that their motives are in some way suspect, other than that they want a better life, and who can blame them?

And was it not Norman Tebbitt who exhorted the unemployed to get on their bikes?

BTW, I would agree that a lack of documentation for many refugees/migrants is a problem, ironically mostly for them, as it fuels suspicion that not all of them are as they seem. But that does not, IMO, turn them all into spongers or latent terrorists.

I'm not complaining that there may be terrorists hidden in the migrant flow, although that is probably the case, (I suspect there is no shortage of home grown ones). I should note that there are reports that migrants have been erasing their fingerprints in order to make themselves unidentifiable.

I am more concerned about an influx of people with ideas and attitudes in conflict with western values. It has taken a great deal of effort over a long time to get something approaching equality for women in Europe, I don't want to see that lost. I visited Syria in 2009, and I was very glad I did not have to live in that society as a woman.

Hi ANNHIG,

Sorry to connect discussing this ominous threat after all our past chats about the charms of London which we both love. Best to you and yours for 2016. Still hoping to return to London next June...

"can you post some links to these claims, please, late day?"

ISLAMISTS IN LONDON
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGzQ9DE2h6w

RAPE IN SWEDEN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ZVTPYv4m4

NO-GO ZONES IN SWEDEN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXCb1VUBDg

AN HUGARIAN LORRY DRIVER APPROACHING THE TUNNEL IN CALAIS - sorry for the language
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ESI4pTDI9g

Some of those youtube videos are "references" come across as propganda garbage...

Folks, it's civilized of you to argue with a flat-out bigot, but don't imagine you are going to make a dent. Be glad such people aren't traveling to Europe. Be glad you get refugees instead.

By the way, did all of you see pictures of the Christmas tree in Greece made out of life jackets? This was put up by rescue guards on Lesvos

http://en.protothema.gr/wp-content/u...15/12/TREE.jpg

and this tree in Athens was decorated by refugees themselves

https://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/...85403454550017

for those who don't get the Daily Pakistan that often

http://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/lifes...rian-refugees/

"Muslim patrols are walking the streets of East London."

2 lads tried to do this a few years back, they were handed in by their local imam and are now doing time at her majesty's pleasure. As in all large cities, especially, the east end of london, there are criminal gangs but please don't fan nonsense hysteria.

I live 50 metres from one of the UK's cities with the largest muslim proportional populations and I have yet to find any evidence of a no-go-area.

Please don't believe the Trump view of the world, he makes a great country like the US appear a bit sad and stupid to the rest of us.

We apparently live in a no-go zone of London. Haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary...it's all media hysteria

What about Sweden & Calais? Is this media hysteria as well?