Referendum in Greece

Old Jun 26th, 2015, 02:35 PM
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Referendum in Greece

It is final, as it was just announced .

Greece will have a referendum on the 5th of July with the dilemma Yes or No to an agreement with the 3 institutions, the EU, IMF and ECB.

There will be more details tomorrow ( EET time) as it is after midnight in Greece now.
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:01 PM
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I found this helpful

https://medium.com/@paulmasonnews/ts...y-bf4c58d02534
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:09 PM
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That is pretty much what happened all this time of negotiations, and how this was received in Greece.

It is already clear that the government will support a no, but I would not be so sure that Greeks will follow, since almost 70% don't want to leave the Eurozone and are clearly pro Euro.
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:14 PM
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Thank you Sandralist. As an uniformed Yank with no dog in the fight I also found this very helpful in understandably summarizing the situation.
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:14 PM
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I am curious as to the language of the referendum -- and since I don't speak Greek, am not sure how it will be understood by the voters. From what I have read, the language does not appear to address the question of whether to remain in the eurozone, but only whether to accept the deal presently offered by the creditors.
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:18 PM
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Yes Sandra, it will be yes or no to the deal of the institutions..
It will not be a yes or no to the Euro, but I am also not sure how this will get through to the Greeks.
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:24 PM
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or be framed by the creditors and the markets.

As always clausar, best of everything to Greece and its people, and Renzi was right when he observed that the leadership of Europe has a moral obligation to be helpful (hope they were listening despite the evidence otherwise).
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 03:27 PM
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Thank you Sandra <3
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Old Jun 26th, 2015, 05:54 PM
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Tough choice for Greece--be bled to death slowly by accepting the creditor's conditions, with no debt relief, or, jump into the abyss, hoping that that their government might competently handle a currency devaluation, which, in other countries, has worked to spark growth, but which seems an uncertain proposition in the hands of a governmental structure not known for its efficiency.

I sort of think they'll vote to take the deal because leaving the euro seems inconceivable, but I still don't see how they will ever dig out of that debt hole in which they were placed in 2010 for the sake of saving European banks.
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Old Jun 27th, 2015, 09:42 AM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33300543

Will the ECB let Greece have money after the 30th?

I see the Greeks are busy getting their money out of the banks, and out of the country.

You mocked when I said take cash to Greece.
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Old Jun 27th, 2015, 11:10 AM
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clausar,

You have a very strong society. It has won the renewed admiration of many in these recent years.

twk,

I have no insight into what Greeks will do, but this is as much about the future of democracy in Europe and the world in the face of a banker's technocracy as it is about euros or no euros.


hetismj2,

I would still mock it and do. It is better to take credit cards and, even if curlytop Jeroen of the Lowlands gets his dearest dream come true and capital controls are imposed, daily withdrawal limits at ATMs will not be so low as to inconvenience most tourists.
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Old Jun 27th, 2015, 12:49 PM
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Hetismj2

Using a credit card sounds great in theory.

The last time we sailed around the Ionian (3 years ago) we had to turn the boat round at the start of the trip and return to Levkas to stock up on cash. We took E300 and credit cards with huge limits. The cards were worthless as 75% of businesses only accepted cash. We were able to withdraw E1500 and return to our planned route.

The situation on the islands may have changed over the years since, maybe not.

It is going to be a long week for the EU and effective leadership is non existent.

The way the crisis is being handled and the constant sight of uncontrolled immigration is doing much to play into the hands of The Daily Mail readers in Britain. Greece may not be the only nation facing possible exit from Europe.

Clausar

Why are Greeks so averse to an exit of the Euro but staying in the EU when the Euro and a fix to the other Euro economies has brought so much pain?
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Old Jun 27th, 2015, 04:26 PM
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"Why are Greeks so averse to an exit of the Euro but staying in the EU...has brought so much pain?"

Because it's nothing compared to the pain they'll experience if they leave the EU.

Good luck Greece. Let's hope that the common sense of all the parties will prevail.
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 12:07 AM
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Actually, a lot of people don't see it that way. Wolfgang Munchau wrote in the Financial Times this morning, regarding the referendum:

"[T]his was the only rational decision for the Greek government to take. The programme that was proposed by the creditors would have prolonged the Greek recession by several years. Grexit, a Greek exit from the eurozone, would have more negative economic consequences in the short run. But at least there would be some upside for Greece eventually. The creditors programme was an economic version of Dante’s hell. It would have brought about the total economic destruction of Greece."

Of course, Greeks have yet to vote, and no doubt they know their own situtation best.
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 12:09 AM
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(As for credit cards, if you go to a remote part of Greece that historically hasn't had the capacity to deal with credit cards, that has nothing to do with capital controls or a return to the drachma. Different subject.)
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 01:27 AM
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I actually said credit cards will be useless. People will want cash. There is no way they could get their hands on the money in a credit card account.
The ECB seems likely to stop the emergency supply of cash tomorrow, meaning there is no more money for cash machines in Greece.
There will almost certainly be a bank holiday on Monday and capital restrictions thereafter.

Calling a referendum was a cop out on the part of the Greek government. They should have had the balls to take hard decisions and if necessary go back on election pledges.

I don't want Greeks to suffer, but they have to face up to facts and reforms. The rest of Europe's taxpayers can't keep bailing out the tax dodgers.
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 02:08 AM
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hetismij2

It is really ridiculous and cheap to present Greeks as not willing to do reforms, and it is far away from truth to say that they are living on bail out Money.

The fact is that more than 80% of that money went to save the German and French banks, with the coverage of the IMF.

Greeks haven't seen in their economy that is keep straggling not even 1 cent of that money.

Greece has done many reforms in the past 5 years, reforms that haven't been always to the better, as they ruined the economy.

The whole ECB/EU/IMF program was supposed to help the Greek economy recover.... the outcome is : 27% unemployement, ( 1,5 Million ppl without jobs) 3 Million Greeks living in or under the edge of poverty,

I could not care less about your opinion regarding the referendum and the "balls of the Greek government*, this is something us Greeks will have to deal with, and an act of democracy.
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 02:43 AM
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The capital controls issue for tourists is a nothing story.

As far as I am aware most debit cards have a daily limit of e300 anyway. We had to use five cards in Levkas to draw out a large amount of cash.

Capital controls of e300 per day would only reiterate what banks will not let you do usually!
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 03:34 AM
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>>>>It is really ridiculous and cheap to present Greeks as not willing to do reforms, and it is far away from truth to say that they are living on bail out Money.

Greece wants to balance their budget with a program heavily weighted to increased taxes instead of structural reforms. Well, they are the worst tax collectors in Europe, so the EU insists on the structural reforms or Greece will just continue failing to meet revenue targets.

>>>>The fact is that more than 80% of that money went to save the German and French banks, with the coverage of the IMF.

Greece's private debt was exchanged for public debt - it is still the debt of the Greek people.

>>>>Greeks haven't seen in their economy that is keep straggling not even 1 cent of that money.

You bet they saw it - all 320 billion that has not been paid back was spent by Greece.

>>>>Greece has done many reforms in the past 5 years, reforms that haven't been always to the better, as they ruined the economy.The whole ECB/EU/IMF program was supposed to help the Greek economy recover.... the outcome is : 27% unemployement, ( 1,5 Million ppl without jobs) 3 Million Greeks living in or under the edge of poverty,

It's not a magic pill; there is a great deal of pain that must be endured to claw one's way out of a massive debt situation. The situation in Greece now is reflective of the fact that the country was living well beyond its means for many years. Debt must work itself out of the system. To suggest that the bailout money was supposed to make everything better in the short term is indicative of the thinking that permitted Greece to dig this hole for itself. Being given more money From Europe is not the answer.


>>>>I could not care less about your opinion regarding the referendum and the "balls of the Greek government*, this is something us Greeks will have to deal with, and an act of democracy.

I wish Greece luck - this is a choice between two painful processes.
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Old Jun 28th, 2015, 04:00 AM
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We just returned from Greece last night. Most of our Greek friends think that the referendum is the only way to break the stalemate. In the meantime, they bemoan the fact that so many scientists, tech people, engineers have either left Greece or are planning to do so. Unemployment among young people is at an all-time high. It is a heartbreaking situation with very difficult repercussions either way.
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