Reentry to France after expiration of visa
 

Hi everyone
I'm looking on the internet for information but can't find anything. My daughter is at a UK university studying languages and has been on her year abroad in France since last
August. Her long stay student Visa will expire in august 2022. She wants to stay in France,travel round the country a bit and continue to improve her French before coming back for her final year at uni starting in October. She thinks that after her visa expires then she can stay on as a tourist and of course would be subject to the rule of not staying more than 90 days out of 180.My question is would she have to leave France before her visa expires and then reenter France. It is impossible to speak to anyone at the French embassy and i did email but got no reply. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I wonder why she hasn't asked the school officials in charge of her study abroad? There may be a process to do extend a visa, but I wouldn't just stay and hope for the best.

I have seen too many overstayers deported and blocked from returning to ever recommend this to anyone.

Her university course has officially finished for this year. It was so complicated to get a Visa in the first place because of Brexit. I'm definitely going to tell her to come home for a bit before going back as a tourist.
.

The first thing to tell us the nationality of the passport she holds.

The post above your one gives a clue they say .
This website may be helpful. It explains that the visa is for etc. https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/...-visas/student
https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/...-visas/student
This page says https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/france-visas/faq
Reading that website it would seem that the visas are done electronically and the embassy is not involved.
Here is a Schengen zone calculation.
https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/vis...or.htm?lang=fr

I'm really interested in something definitive on that question too. I have a 3 year residence permit, and would like to know if I can stay another 90 days if that permit is not renewed.

This Tripadvisor thread goes in circles over that very issue, without anything definitive, and makes mention of other Tripadvisor threads on that very topic. One poster said - - and this sounds most prudent - - "I've never seen an unequivocal answer to that one way or the other. From the plain reading of the law, it would seem the days simply don't count which would not require a re-entry. However, if it was me, I would exit while the visa was still valid, and then re-enter as a short-stay tourist so that I had the relevant stamps showing compliance with the visa and then the separate entry as a tourist. Just seems clearer and easier to explain should one ever get any questions."

"https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187275-i116-k11644032-Does_90_days_tourist_visa_works_after_Schengen_vis a_expires-Germany.html

There is an old thread on here in which Alec says you have to leave. He hasn't been around for a while but seemed to know visa laws pretty well.
https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...r-visa-959742/


Btw if you have a country specific visa/residence permit the 90 day rule also applies for visiting other Schengen countries. The chance of being caught are slim, but if you for instance have a permit for France but spend 4 months in Spain you are illegal in Spain and risk deportation and the cancellation of your residence permit for France.

You may like to consider joining Expat Life in France on FB that has a visa group that will answer this question for you.

The post above your one gives a clue they say
Quote:
because of Brexit

I see no clue other than the person does not have an EU passport or there would be no problem with French travel.

Hi sorry for not replying sooner but I've been at work. Daughter has a UK passport. It has all become so complicated since Brexit,which I did not vote for. I was also a student of French and lived there for 2 years. All i needed was a carte de séjour. Even getting the Visa initially for my daughter was a pain despite her being part of an organised exchange between her uni and the French university. Neither uni was able to give much advice about the Visa process. Anyway we would like her to stay a bit longer. If you are studying a language then you need to be in the country practising the language and soaking up the culture. Thank you for all the advice given so far!

Hi sorry for not replying sooner but I've been at work. Daughter has a UK passport. It has all become so complicated since Brexit,which I did not vote for. I was also a student of French and lived there for 2 years. All i needed was a carte de séjour. Even getting the Visa initially for my daughter was a pain despite her being part of an organised exchange between her uni and the French university. Neither uni was able to give much advice about the Visa process. Anyway we would like her to stay a bit longer. If you are studying a language then you need to be in the country practising the language and soaking up the culture. Thank you for all the advice given so far!

To reiterate from above, what I would do: a couple days before the expiration of the visa, go visit the UK (or anywhere outside of Schengen). After the expiration of the visa, go back and begin the "any 90 days within 180" as a 'tourist'. You then have the stamps in the passport clearly showing the transits. (What I was doing for a few years till recently, is going into Schengen for 45 days, leaving for 45 days, rinse and repeat, which is what I would go back and do again after the expiration of my visa.)

Firstly, long stay visas have no disqualifying effect on the 90/180 day rule. Anyone with a long stay visa may extend their stay another 90 days beyond the end date of the visa, as long as they would otherwise qualify for a 90/180-day stay.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo...86-ASW_EN.html

Secondly, what is less clear - must someone exit France, then reenter to start the 90-day period. I have seen several interpretations, as the law itself is not specific. The last interpretation that I read stated that someone starting a 90-day stay at the end of a long stay visa must leave France (this could be the time it takes to cross the Spanish border, for example), but is not necessarily required to leave the Schengen zone.

French immiigration officials are not that ignorant. If they have any reason to suspect a UK citizen (which they would not do in 99% of the cases), they know how to add 90 days to the expiration date of the student visa to see if the stay is legal or not. This is not like the famous visa runs in Thailand in the 1990s.

Thanks for posting the rule Sarastro
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo...86-ASW_EN.html
What it suggests is that the day after your Visa or residence permit expires, if you continue staying in the country of issue, you are overstaying your visa. You can, though say, "But today I'm no longer a resident/visa holder - - today I'm a tourist!" But what it suggests is that if you don't leave before your visa/resident permit expires, you are not actually a tourist - - you are in violation of your visa/residence permit. So you can tell the authorities: "Aha! I spent the night in another Schengen country last night - - camping in the forest - - so NOW I am a tourist!" But you need proof.

I imagine staying at a hotel across the border in another Schengen country, with receipt and credit card statement would be kind of iffy proof, but swearing on a stack of Bibles that you went camping in a forest across the border might have limited legal weight. A passport stamp, on the other hand, would make things pretty clear.

Yes it would, but so would a receipt for lunch at a restaurant in Luxembourg. Overstaying a 90-day limit is far more serious than would be a nebulous situation about proving you left, or didn’t, at the end of a long stay visa.

I'm very grateful for everyone for taking the time to comment. Thank you for your help.

It's not just based on time spent in the one country, it's time spent in ALL Schengen countries. So you can't just go from France to Luxembourg and reset the clock, they all count towards the 90 days, if I have not misunderstood your post.

Lavandula

You are correct in stating that you have misunderstood. A long term visa stay is effectively invisible in reference to the 90/180-day rule. There is no clock to reset. The question here is what triggers the start of the 90-day period when one is already in France as the holder of an expired long term visa. The EU law is rather nebulous on this point, but interpretation has stated that the 90 day period starts when one actually leaves and renters the member country, which is France in this case. There is no requirement to depart the Schengen zone itself to start the 90-day period.

Once again thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. In the end my daughter left France a couple of days before her visa expired and flew back to the UK to spend a week at home with us. She flew back today to Switzerland via Amsterdam with the intention of going back to France in a few days time. Her passport was scrutinised at passport control in Amsterdam during transit which happened to me last summer with my horrible new blue UK passport. But it all worked out well in the end and thanks again for the advice.

Thanks for reporting back on this confusing issue. Glad it all worked out.

With apologies to Sarastro, it's one thing to say that the law is that the visa doesn't count for the 90/180 rule and that the only requirement is to leave the country in question, it's quite another in practice to be classed as am overstayer and be banned from returning to the Schengen zone indefinitely by an overzealous emigration official . So I think that Annette's DD was very wise to go back to the UK to get her passport stamped so that there could be no chance of being classed as an overstayer.

I just glad it was all sorted successfully, but you make a good point Ann. Leaving Schengen they will look for an entry stamp.

The 90/180 rule applies whist you have a valid visa for one country as well, and even for those, like my sons, legally resident in a Schengen land.
Chances of getting caught crossing a land border are slim, though they do check trains regularly, but flying could give a problem. One reason son#2 took his family to the UK and Ireland this year, so he doesn't get problems with his job.

A Brexit benefit I read today. Guy left his car with a meet and greet parking service while he went on holiday to Spain. Came back to a speeding charge. Thanks to the stamps in his passport he could prove he was out of the country at the time. I'm sure the Mogg will be quoting it before long, delighted to have finally found an actual benefit.

Just read this thread (I am a lurker nowadays). The safest way to extend one's stay in a Schengen country (such as France) beyond the expiry of type D visa (like the student visa issued by a Schengen state) is to leave the Schengen area, and then re-enter, getting an exit and entry stamp in the process. This proves that the traveller has left France on the expiry of the visa and re-entered Schengen for 90-in-180 days. I suppose you can just leave France for another country within Schengen (such as Belgium, Spain etc) and then re-enter, but since there is no passport control and no stamping, it will then be up to you to demonstrate you have left France, by showing travel ticket, accommodation receipt etc, but it's not as good a proof as Schengen exit/entry stamps. What you cannot and shouldn't do is just to stay on in France, expecting your stay to automatically roll into 90-in-180 days Schengen stay. This will be regarded as overstay, and the usual penalty for third country national is a ban from Schengen area for 3 years.

Nice to see you here Alec, don't be a stranger :).

<<A Brexit benefit I read today. Guy left his car with a meet and greet parking service while he went on holiday to Spain. Came back to a speeding charge. Thanks to the stamps in his passport he could prove he was out of the country at the time. I'm sure the Mogg will be quoting it before long, delighted to have finally found an actual benefit.>>

Thanks for that, Hets. I'm sure that Mogg will be thrilled that someone has finally found a benefit to add to the three or four he already has. And that should lead to an interesting conversation with the meet and greet service too.

I found this online which answers FAQ regarding staying in the Schengen area without a visa and it says that "It should be noted that periods of previous stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa are not taken into account in the calculation of the duration of visa-free stay. Residence permits and long-stay visas are subject to different rules and the above explanations and calculations do not apply to them."

Is there an update on what your daughter decided to do after her visa expired? I'm in a similar situation with my visa expiring at the end of September.

MRom7 a few posts up from yours the OP says her daughter went home for a few days before returning.

carte de sejour expiry
 

Reading through the thread it seems that this would apply to a residence permit as well (carte de sejour)and that for the expiry of a residence permit one cannot assume that you can stay an additional 90 days but rather the best course of action is to leave the country before expiry and renter after expiry and start the clock for the 90 days. Is there any place where this is formally written in terms of an official government website?

One assumes you read the entire thread. If not, the answer is in post #13.

I’m kinda in this situation but i’m a fresh grad with my student visa and waiting for my working visa to be issued. My student visa expires on the 1/1/2024. I am going to Lithuania from 30/12/2022 till 2/1/2024; a day after my student visa expires. Does this count as if i left France and my 90 day clock starts?My passport do allow the 90 day EU stay btw.

I kinda think it kinda seems like i overstayed in France since I came a day after my student visa expires.

It depends on your nationality. If you have a nationality that does not require a visa in the Schengen area, there is no real problem because your student visa has nothing to do with finding yourself in the Schengen zone as a "tourist." But your work visa definitely needs to arrive within the next 90 days.

Hey Alec, nice put response from you there. I am in this situation where I will be leaving France shortly before my France student visa expires; going to another schengen country. I will be back a day after my french visa expiration. Does this count as overstay? Or do I need to at least come only 2 days after expiration to make it seem that my stay in France is interrupted (not continuous) and technically roll in the 90 day count?

I am waiting for my qualified working visa tho. It is still pending. Will this be a reason to legally overstay?

Similar problem - US passport
 

I’ve got a similar problem here, US national living in France for the past two years on a student visa for a Master’s program. My titre de séjour pluriannuel expired on Jan 3 of this year, but I asked for a 12-month chercheur d’emploi extension and received a récépissé valid until Feb 12 of this year. Only problem is the first date available at the préfecture to pick up my new titre de séjour is March 12. I’m trying to fix the problem a number of different ways, but if needed, could I theoretically leave France for another Schengen country or the UK on Feb 11, stay there a couple days, and come back as a tourist on my US passport until my new titre de séjour is ready?