When In Rome Do like The Romans Do...

I believe that is presumptuous to expect, when you visit a foreign country,that the natives of that country automatically must know the English language..

Exactly true, Patrick. I just wanted to point out that it's not only Americans who are likely to be insistent or impatient about wanting English spoken.

I've heard that English is really, really prevalent in Scandinavia. I've not been yet -- I presume that in your example, the Swede and the Dane did manage to communicate in English in the end?

The thing is, almost every countries second language taught is English. So if you're first language is English, then what should be your second? Spanish? French? German? Japanese? None of these stand out, with the exception of perhaps spanish to those the in U.S.

Yes people should try to remain courteous when traveling and respect the customs of the locals.

But like I said, my experience has been that the most rude people have been europeans on their holidays to other european destinations.

Yes they did, 111op. Apparently much or most inter-Scandinavian discourse is done in English, despite the similarities of the languages.

I always remember, when I purchased my first Metro rail ticket, not far from the Notre Dame Cathedral. As usual I tried to order the ticket in my limited french language, and the french lady in the ticket office, smiled, and spoke to me in perfect english. Such a nice friendly lady.

That's what I heard. I remember reading somewhere that the Scandinavian languages are fairly similar, but that the Scandinavians don't really learn the languages of their neighbors -- maybe some of this is historical as well, as I think that one used to be ruled by another or something (I can't remember what the history is regarding this), so perhaps there're some national pride issues too. Finnish though is supposedly close to a Baltic language.

A friend just returned from a trip to Scandinavia, where she visited all 4 countries. One of the many things she learned is that schoolchildren in each country are taught the language of one other nearby country--and then English.

Ah, ok, so I guess I'm proven wrong then. Thanks.

Scandinavians do learn the language of at least one adjacent country, but it doesn't mean they speak it. E.g. in one Danish family I know, the mother learned Swedish, English, and French and the father learned Norwegian, English, and German. So it's not necessarily that they can't speak another Scandinavian language, they just often prefer not to.

All the better for those who don't speak a Scandinavian language and only speak English then. :-)

Anyway, back to the "French snobbery" issue. Don't people think that there's just something about the French? There seem to be fewer complaints about the Dutch, the Norwegians, the Germans, etc., no?

I don't know... I spent three weeks in Vienna a few years ago and didn't find many people in that city to be friendly!

If all pervasive is an argument for worldwide adoption and use then may I suggest that we should all be trying to speak in dialects from China, with Spanish as a second language.

Had the original post been about another country and on another board, the postings would have turned very nasty very quickly.

There are some interesting remarks here that the board-bullys (as I refer to them) haven't tried to shout down.

The French in my experience are a very proud country who are fiercely proud of their language. So much so, isn't the French language protected by law?

Well, WW, it's quite possible that Mandarin will become the next lingua franca. Or maybe even Russian. You just never know.

The Latin-French-English progression is definitely interesting -- I've read somewhere that the Treaty of Versailles (1918) is the first treaty to be written in both French and English. Not sure if that's really true, but if so, its an interesting date as far as the ascent of English is concerned.

French is just not as important or as widely used as, say, 200 years ago.

Off by a year on the Treaty of Versailles (1919), but the factoid I stated appears to be true, as substantiated by

http://members.tripod.com/the_english_dept/esc.html

(Scroll down to "Growth and Expansion of English.")

Aren't there TWO issues here?

Firstly, rude people working for government, semi-state or former semi state bodies (which includes all almost ALL transportation companies). I don?t have to leave Canada to meet LOADS of people in THAT category.

Secondly, people in non-English-speaking countries, in tourist-facing jobs, that can't speak English. I have never found it a problem and would never consider them rude just because they can't speak English. I think its MY responsibility to learn some basics or, as another poster wisely mentioned, have a phrase book on hand to at least point to what I need to say. English may be the "lingua franca" of the younger, educated generations, but not necessarily that of the older generations. In parts of the Spanish Basque region, the lingua franca among the young educated classes is Basque! I thought myself lucky if I found someone willing to speak ANY form of Indo-European :)

Most of the really rude people I have met in the service industry speak perfect English, which is how I know they were being really rude.

Boy Walter, do you miss the point. The issue has never been about how many people speak a particular language, but rather how many different places English is taught and even spoken. How many places other than in China do you suppose the common person is taught Chinese (of any dialect?).

Kansan, here's what I think may have been going on in your interaction with the customs guy: he expected you to greet him properly, not just silently hand over your passport.

In France, you should always first greet people you will or may interact with. When you enter a shop, you should say "Bonjour, Monsieur" or "Bonjour, Madame" to the shopkeeper.

I think the customs guy was teasing you for not properly greeting him. The proper thing to have done would have been to have walked up to him, said "Bonjour, Monsieur", and then handed over your passport. He waited for you to make eye contact, and then showed you how it is done.

And when you're done, although you've been with him five seconds, say "Au revoir, Monsieur".

I highly recommend the book "French or Foe?", by Polly Platt, to understand these "codes" of French interaction. Or try her second book, "Savoir Flair!". For the French, establishing personal contact has to come first, even for the most trivial interaction.

- Larry

Xiexie ni, Duibuqi

The issue is what we make it Patrick. I was not making a serious point. If you look at the argument from one particular point, albeit abstract, and say
(a) What is the fastest growing first language in the world - I believe its chinese (in its widest context) followed by Spanish

(b) Where do economists believe will be the centre of most commercial gain in the next century - the far east
(c) In certain parts of the US is not Spanish taking over from English as the mother tongue?
The spread of English, went with the missionaries and the empire building and may fall with its passing.

I wasn't talking short time, but long long term - who knows what we'll language we'll be talking 500 years from now!