Rail travel - From Frankfurt to Switzerland (6 days) and then to Italy ... Help! Plus advice needed on dealing with shopping and luggage ...
 

The information on this website has been incredibly helpful, and most of our holiday has come together pretty well thanks to the plethora of information available. Many thanks to the fodorites who have contributed!

We fly into Frankfurt (in 3 weeks, which is very exciting!), and will take the first train to Switzerland where we are spending time in Wengen and Lucerne. After 5 nights in Switzerland, we head for Italy.

Questions :

1. Should I book the rail travel from Frankfurt to Wengen now, or wait until we arrive in Frankfurt? If the answer is yes -do I need to book separate tickets (a) from Frankfurt to the Swiss border (b) Swiss border to Wengen?

2. What kind of rail pass should I opt for in Switzerland? Or do I not need a rail pass? Apart from the trip to Wengen, from Wengen to Lucerne and Lucerne to Italy, I envisage that there will be some day trips etc whilst we're there.

3. Is there a particular route that we should take when travelling from Lucerne to Venice? Scenery is the priority ....

4. We spend 17 days in Italy, and I was intending to pay for each train trip rather than take out a rail pass. I got the impression that rail travel in Italy is well priced and when I did the comparison of Rail Pass for the trip vs. discrete tickets, the latter seemed to be more cost effective (Switzerland being the exception as I'm not sure what the best option is here). Am I on the right track? I haven't considered any other benefits a pass might offer??

5. One last unrelated question. My 20 year old daughter will be with me, and there's no doubt that we will manage to acquire clothing and shoes as we travel. I'm conscious that lugging them around is problematic, not to mention the quotas on the planes. Does anybody have any tips as to the best way to manage this (aside from the obvious response - don't buy too much!)

Thanks in anticipation!

We have found that after we have acquired many " shopping memento's " we will find a good carton and tape + cord in Italy, and mail it home.

You can do this partway thru the trip or towards the end. You can ease this process by using the help of a Concierge or others at one of your hotels.

You may want to pack a collapseable bag of some sort to hold your purchases until you mail them.

Happy Voyage

Have you input your itinerary at www.railpass.com to see if it would be cheaper to but point-to-point tickets?

Whatever station you buy rail tickets (assuming you will) in, e.g., Frankfurt, you can buy tickets to anywhere, including cross-border, unless you end up using a pass for the Switzerland portion..


If you anted the REALLY scenic route from Luzern to venice what you could do is go via the Bernina Pass however that would involve several changes and take a lot longer than the more usual route which if you wanted a slightly faster train you could use a Cisalpino service www.cisalpino.com

"Advatnages" to passes:

ultimate flexibility

no waiting to buy tickets although there probably wouldn't be much of a wait

great for impulse travel

the more you use it the more economical it gets

disadvantages:

you may spend more for the actual traveling you do than if you had bought point-to-point tickets

I wouldn't buy tickets from Frankfurt, because you don't know how much time it will take to collect bags, pass through immigration, etc. And what if your plane is late? Better, I think, to buy the ticket for the appropriate train after you've arrived. You can reserve seats then too if you wish.

As for a pass for Switzerland, it depends on how much additional travel you want to do. I ran the numbers for you. The total cost of the three basic legs of your journey---Basel (where you will enter Switzerland) to Wengen, Wengen to Luzern, and Luzern to Lugano (assuming you go the fastest route to Venice) is 144 SFr in second class (rounded off). If you bought a Half-Fare card (99 SFr bought there), the cost of pass + tickets comes to 171 SFr, but then you get half off any other travel you do. One high mountain trip (Schilthorn, etc.) with 1/2 off would justify buying the pass. Another option would be a 3-day FlexPass, which would fully cover your 3 trips, and give you half off everything else. That would be a total of 192 SFr (assuming you buy two; that is the "saver" price). That's 21 francs more than the Half-Fare Card option, but you get the convenience of not having to purchase tickets, AND you can travel all you want (boats too) on those three days. So, on your Wengen to Luzern travel day, you could do a short sidetrip to Giessbach (by boat from Brienz), or you could enjoy a ride on the Vierwaldstättersee boats after you arrive at Luzern, going to Weggis or Vitznau. (But the mountain trips like Pilatus and Rigi still wouldn't be fully covered). And I believe the FlexPass covers museums as well--I'll have to check on that.

As Dukey says, it's a question of what's important to you---lowest possible cost vs convenience, etc.

As for Luzern to Venice, do you need to make the trip in one day? If you can take two, that opens up interesting options, scenery-wise. Otherwise, your best route is Luzern-Lugano-Milano-Venice. The part from Luzern to Lugano should be quite scenic.

gplusg - thanks for the suggestions on dealing with the excess shopping mementos. Will definitely take your advice!

Dukey & enzian - what a wealth of knowledge you both are! Ok. Convenience is important, but not if it's at an exorbitant price. I used the raileurope pass finder (http://www.raileurope.com) to compare costs of a pass vs. one-off tickets, and the latter was more competitive. In Switzerland I'm leaning toward the half fare card so that we have complete flexibility. Q1 -Do you know if the pass extends to museums, boats etc? Q2 - Can I purchase the Swiss pass in Frankfurt, or would I wait until we arrived in Basel?

I've been using the (www.sbb.ch) website quite a lot, and they list the stops for the Lucerne - Venice trip. The most direct route is Lucerne - Milan - Venice. And I can't see any itinerary that makes reference to Lugano?? Q3 -Am I looking in the wrong place? Should I be making a detour?

Q4 - I've spent heaps of time trawling through this website (and printed a book!) but I did wonder if you might recall a thread or two that makes reference to must see/do things in the Wengen & Lucerne districts. It would be really helpful if you could steer me in the right direction.

Thanks again for your help!
S

Lugano is on the train route from Zurich,Lucerne to Milan.It's on Lake Lugano Switzerland, a little short of the Italian border. A lovely town in a beautiful setting.

Depending on the length of your flight you might just stay in Frankfurt overnight to rest then onwards the following morning.

If that does'nt fit, you can schedule a train 3-5 hours after your scheduled arrival to take all reasonable plane and customs delays into account.

I have always pre-purchased my train tickets and/or passes.This is a very crowded time of the year and the ticket counters are usually jammed.If are running late at the airport you do not want to miss your train for this reason.If nothing else,it gives me great peace of mind.

MELSAL,
According to Rick Steves, the 99chf Half Price Card works for steamers, lifts etc (http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/ausswitz.htm). No mention is made of validity for museums, so I would guess not. You could email the swiss train company to find out for sure, though. Enjoy your trip.

Thanks gplusg & JN!

Our flight arrives in Frankfurt at 5.15am, so it made sense to jump on a train and head straight for Switzerland (and then sleep!). According to www.sbb.ch, the first train to Wengen departs Frankfurt at 10.50am ... which should be ample time. Are there other trains available that leave earlier (that I can't manage to find)?

Cheers
S

There is absolutely no reason to wait until almost 11:00 AM to start out on your train journey.

You might want to check schedules on the GermanRail website:

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

for the departure point you can input Frankfurt Flughafen (the airport rail station) and for the arrival point use Wengen(CH)

You'll be required to make a minimum of two changes I believe and perhaps as many as four depending on the timing and route chosen

Have you taken trains in Europe before?

Sometimes when you say "changes" to people they get nervous but there is absolutely no reason to do so.

Dukey, I'll definitely check out the website you provided. I'm not fazed about train changes as long as there is adequate time to get from one platform to another. Could be a naive statement given I've yet to tackle the language barrier! Just have to decide whether to purchase the tickets in advance or not.

Thanks!

Understood.

I can tell you from my own experience that I suspect you'llhave little trouble with language issues in terms of rail use in any of the countires you are visiting, assuming you are familiar with some of the basic terms for things like "track" "departure" "arrival" etc.

Are you familiar with the posted departure placards that are in use in rail stations and how to read them?

Dukey, In short - No! Is there a website (or other source) you could recommend?

There may be a website and perhpas someone else will comment but here is a quickie for you.

Most every rail station anywhere in Eruope will have an updated poster listing all the arrivals (on one poster) and departures (on another poster) prominently displayed.

These are in addition to any electronic signs or boards listing trains.

The posters are often displayed on the various platforms, in the general waiting area, and at the bottom of stairways/escalators up to platforms.

The posters list arrivals/departures by time and train number and platform number.

If you know the time of your train's scheduled departure from a particular station you can easily tell from which platform it will depart.

The departures also list most every stop the particular train will make, to inlude its ultimate end point.

MELSAL, Use "Frankfurt Flughafen" (the airport) as your starting point on www.sbb.ch.

You'll see there is a train as early as 5:55 (the ICE #5, which goes all the way to Interlaken with no changes). But that one is pretty sooon after your arrival.

Next is ICE #511, which deprts the airport at 6:54, changes at Mannhaeim and Basel on the way to Interlaken, Lauterbrunnen, and Wengen. That one is reasonable, given your arrival time, but it has more changes than the others.

Next would be IC # 501, departing the airport at 7:54, with a change at Basel, etc.

In Zurich, I have ben able to catch a train that left 30 minutes after my arrival. . . but that was Zurich. I think Frankfurt is bigger and busier, and things take longer.

One thing you could do is buy tickets that work on any train, rather than a discounted one that is good only for a particular train (I think those are the Sparpreis). Then you could try for the 5:55, but catch the next if you didn't make it.

Looking back at your other questions---

Luzern to Venice: The SBB websit shows where you change trains on the first page. So it will show Luzern to Milan, then Milan to Venice. But if you click on "intermediate stops" (Zwischenhalte ein" in German), it will show the stops along the way, including Bellinzona and Lugano.

For discussions of what to see and do around WEngen and Luzern, you can use the "search" function---just type in Wengen, and all the threads discussing it will pop up. You'll have to wad through lots of discussion about hotels, but there is other information too. Most people go to Wengen to hike, or to visit one of the mountaintops (Schilthorn or Jungfraujoch). For Luzern, try spelling it both ways---both Luzern and Lucerne. Some people like to use one, some the other. There is lots to do there---boat excursions, museums, charming lakeside villages to visit, more mountaintop excursions, as well as just enjoying the city.

Or we could talk about what to do in each place here. What are your main interests?

Dukey & enzian - It sounds like the open rail ticket may be the way to go from Frankfurt. It will keep the panic levels to a minimum if we're not locked into a travel time.

Interests - The key objective is to see the beauty of Switzerland. Mountains, lakes etc. I love the outdoors, but there are limitations in the amount of time I can spend hiking (ie short hikes are fine). If there are landmarks that are worth exploring, then I'd be keen to do so. Throw in eating and interacting with locals, and there's probably not a lot more I can add. I'll do some more searching, but if there's any 'must see/do' advice you can provide, it would be gratefully appreciated.

Many thanks ... again!

Hi again---We're going to be there ourselves, probably right after you. Our objective is hiking, but I can come up with other ideas/things to do as well.

There are several splendid and fairly short walks in the Wengen area, both rated "easy". One is the walk from the Mannlichen lift (ride up from Wengen to the top of the ridge) to Kleine Scheidegg, along a level or very slightly downhill path, with the spectacular Jungfrau group directly in front of you. You ride a train back down to Wengen. The walk takes about 1.5 hours. There are several places to stop for lunch at Kleine Scheidegg; at least one should have an outdoor terrace.

Another walk is on the other side of the valley---descend to Lauterbrunnen and ride the cablecar up to Grutschalp. You walk to the village of Mürren, with great views across the valley to the Jungfrau group (or you can ride a train). Many people combine this with a trip to the top of the Schilthorn, home of the Piz Gloria of James Bond fame. You can ride the Schilthorn lift all the way back down to the Lauterbrunnen valley, to Stechelberg. The walk from there to Lauterbrunnen along the river is also nice; I don't recall how long it takes. One can visit the Trummelbach falls (and take the elevators up inside the mountain) on the way. From Lauterbrunnen, take the train back up to Wengen.

Or you can take the train to Interlaken and spend a day on one of the two lakes there, Brienzersee or Thunersee. The latter has a castle or two---Oberhofen is one; I beliee it is now a museum but we've never been.

How many nights do you have in each place? Are you staying in Luzern itself, or perhaps in a lovely lakeside village that you reach by boat?

enzian, Your suggestions sound great! We're spending 3 nights in Wengen (2 full days) and 2 nights in Lucerne (staying in Lucerne). Probably not near enough time, but that's the harsh reality of travel I guess. What are your thoughts on taking the train to the top of Jungfraujoch?

You have avery good input to go over the site raileurope, I just tried it out NOW ,it works beautifully. Italy has its own discount rail pass.
Have read tremendous review of Brennier rail trip inm switz.
I have a similar itinerary Sep, look forward to your experience on this board
Bindi

I strongly agree with the others. Get onto the German Rail site, WWW.Bahn.de

When it opens click "International Visitors" in the red bar at the top of the page. The date you insert should be European version ( 22 6 2007 for June 22.Then start at Frankfurt Flughafen ( Airport)and destination Wengen CH. The site usually insists you enter the age of the travelers.
When the schedule opens you can ask for earlier or later trains and "details for all" which will show each connecting times .The best overall looks like 3 changes and about 6 hours travel time.