Rail travel - Zurich to Toulon
Aug 31st, 2008, 11:47 AM
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Rail travel - Zurich to Toulon
We are traveling to Toulon from Zurich in September with Eurail passes. It appears the best route is via Genoa. The trip to Genoa through the Alps appears to be scenic; likewise the Riviera trip to Toulon. Are these scenic rides or should we view them as just transportation; what about comfort and timliness of trains?
Aug 31st, 2008, 12:29 PM
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Hi fenian,
Am not sure how you found rail connections from Zurich to Toulon going via Genoa, but that would be quite a detour!
Looking at the Swiss Railway site (www.rail.ch), there is one halfway decent daily connection with a single train change in Geneva, taking close to 8 hours...
The journey has some scenic portions, most notably the ride overlooking Lake Geneva heading into Lausanne, but you will be on a main line/TGV, not a mountain railway.
Wish I could suggest an affordable flight option from Zurich, but this is a very difficult route to do cheaply and comfortably. If you will be renting a car to explore the area anyway, it might make sense to fly EasyJet from Basel to Nice instead, but that's not ideal either.
In any event, you should really check if a Eurail pass makes sense for this journey, if that is the only long distance train trip you will be taking - you will still need to purchase some sort of seat reservation for the TGV portion from Geneva to Toulon. As your journey originates in Switzerland, you can use rail.ch to purchase your ticket and pick it up at Zurich station or have it mailed to you (expensive shipping surcharge though). There are generally cheap restricted "PREMS" fares available on the French segment, a quick search shows a price of CHF 115 for a one way second class ticket purchased close to the maximum advance window of 90 days.
If you will be taking trains in Switzerland prior to this trip, a Swiss Pass would substantially reduce the fare, as you would only pay CHF 41 for the journey from Geneva onwards (again the cheapest restricted PREMS fare).
Trains - double-decker intercity coaches in Switzerland and TGV in France - are comfortable and timely, although I would still be very tempted to travel in 1st class for such a long journey. You will cross the Swiss/French border at Geneva station, there is a separate platform for trains to/from France.
Hope this helps,
Andre
Am not sure how you found rail connections from Zurich to Toulon going via Genoa, but that would be quite a detour!
Looking at the Swiss Railway site (www.rail.ch), there is one halfway decent daily connection with a single train change in Geneva, taking close to 8 hours...
The journey has some scenic portions, most notably the ride overlooking Lake Geneva heading into Lausanne, but you will be on a main line/TGV, not a mountain railway.
Wish I could suggest an affordable flight option from Zurich, but this is a very difficult route to do cheaply and comfortably. If you will be renting a car to explore the area anyway, it might make sense to fly EasyJet from Basel to Nice instead, but that's not ideal either.
In any event, you should really check if a Eurail pass makes sense for this journey, if that is the only long distance train trip you will be taking - you will still need to purchase some sort of seat reservation for the TGV portion from Geneva to Toulon. As your journey originates in Switzerland, you can use rail.ch to purchase your ticket and pick it up at Zurich station or have it mailed to you (expensive shipping surcharge though). There are generally cheap restricted "PREMS" fares available on the French segment, a quick search shows a price of CHF 115 for a one way second class ticket purchased close to the maximum advance window of 90 days.
If you will be taking trains in Switzerland prior to this trip, a Swiss Pass would substantially reduce the fare, as you would only pay CHF 41 for the journey from Geneva onwards (again the cheapest restricted PREMS fare).
Trains - double-decker intercity coaches in Switzerland and TGV in France - are comfortable and timely, although I would still be very tempted to travel in 1st class for such a long journey. You will cross the Swiss/French border at Geneva station, there is a separate platform for trains to/from France.
Hope this helps,
Andre
Aug 31st, 2008, 02:45 PM
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Thanks Andre
That is very helpful. I'm looking for advice on the tradeoff of speed (the route through Geneva) vs. taking an extra day and routing through the Riviera. If the rail routes are exceptionally scenic and if travel with 1st class
Eurail pass is comfortable on the trains to and through Genoa we would opt to spend an extra day in route with an overnight stop somewhere along the way (Como, Genoa, other?)and give up a day in our travels later in the trip.
Advice from those who have traveled those routes would be appreciated.
/ Fenian
That is very helpful. I'm looking for advice on the tradeoff of speed (the route through Geneva) vs. taking an extra day and routing through the Riviera. If the rail routes are exceptionally scenic and if travel with 1st class
Eurail pass is comfortable on the trains to and through Genoa we would opt to spend an extra day in route with an overnight stop somewhere along the way (Como, Genoa, other?)and give up a day in our travels later in the trip.
Advice from those who have traveled those routes would be appreciated.
/ Fenian
Aug 31st, 2008, 03:23 PM
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Fenian,
The Zurich to Genoa route crosses the Alps through the Gotthard tunnel. The route is somewhat scenic, but certainly not worth spending an extra day(!) on the train for. Have never taken a train along the Riviera, so can't judge that portion of the ride.
However, in general, mainline trains in Europe are a utilitarian form of transportation from A to B, they are not similar to the "cruise-style" trains in the Canadian Rockies for example. That's why their routes are almost never exceptionally scenic, as speed is more important - so there will generally be quite a few tunnels instead of dramatic vistas when traversing mountainous terrain.
If you really want to see the Alps up close, then you should spend a few days in a mountain resort.
Hope this helps,
Andre
The Zurich to Genoa route crosses the Alps through the Gotthard tunnel. The route is somewhat scenic, but certainly not worth spending an extra day(!) on the train for. Have never taken a train along the Riviera, so can't judge that portion of the ride.
However, in general, mainline trains in Europe are a utilitarian form of transportation from A to B, they are not similar to the "cruise-style" trains in the Canadian Rockies for example. That's why their routes are almost never exceptionally scenic, as speed is more important - so there will generally be quite a few tunnels instead of dramatic vistas when traversing mountainous terrain.
If you really want to see the Alps up close, then you should spend a few days in a mountain resort.
Hope this helps,
Andre
Aug 31st, 2008, 07:32 PM
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Andre
Thanks for the advice. We will take the faster route as you suggest. As such we may now have an extra day in Zurich. I will be with my 18 year old daughter. Do you have one or two "must do" suggestions while in Zurich? Perhaps there is an authentic, non-touristy restaurant you recommend to visitors?
Fenian
Thanks for the advice. We will take the faster route as you suggest. As such we may now have an extra day in Zurich. I will be with my 18 year old daughter. Do you have one or two "must do" suggestions while in Zurich? Perhaps there is an authentic, non-touristy restaurant you recommend to visitors?
Fenian
Sep 1st, 2008, 02:15 PM
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You could leave Zurich early in the morning and take a series of regional trains to Zweisimmen in time to catch the Golden Pass Panoramic train leaving at 10:26 and arriving in Geneva at 13:24. Then you could take a direct TGV from Geneva to Toulon, leaving at 13:44 and arriving at 18:09. For a description of the Golden Pass route and timetables, go here: http://tinyurl.com/692l9f.
Sep 2nd, 2008, 02:22 PM
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Hi fenian,
Sorry I haven't answered earlier, work has been a killer.
Anyway, regarding "must dos" and "authentic, non-touristy" restaurants in Zurich I can offer the following.
A) Must do
1) Shopping with a city tour on the side
With an 18-year old girl I suppose shopping would be highest on the agenda. The mainstream stores (department stores, H&M and the like) are on the Bahnhofstrasse heading from the train station to the Lake, with the shops getting more upscale as you go towards the lake.
A must-stop is the main Sprüngli pastry shop at Paradeplatz. They are most famous for their "Luxemburgerli", which are basically Oreos, if the cookie dough were a light meringue, and the filling were available in such flavours as chocolate, pistachio, coffee, strawberry and champagne/chocolate (my favourite) ;-) But most anything is good there - they have a large cafe upstairs as well if you want to sit down and/or order an actual meal. Rennweg is a very nice pedestrian shopping street which will lead you over a hill and through neighbouring streets in the old expensive some slightly less so and to the Limmat river. You can also head up to the Lindenhof, a small park with a pretty lookout over the old town and the river.
Across the river you will find the Niederdorf, which until about 10 years ago was quite seedy but is a fun mix now. There are some really pretty streets around Rindermark/Neumarkt and of course shopping everywhere.
There are a two churches (Fraumünster and Grossmünster) in the sections of town I just described with beautiful stained glass windows - check the Zurich destination pages on this site for more info
2) Museums:
If you're into culture, the Kunsthaus' permanent collection of painting and sculpture (Giacometti!) is first rate and they currently have two exhibitions I absolutely want to catch: Saul Steinberg and a private collection of Swiss Avant-Garde painters from the early 20th century.
www.kunsthaus.ch
The Rietberg museum has a world-class collection of asian art and is located in a beautiful park with nice views of the lake.
http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/internet...lish/home.html
B) Restaurants
Since Zurich is not that much of a tourist town, you would almost need to look for touristy restaurants on purpose. "Authentic" restaurants will also have lots of non-Swiss people eating there, simply because Zurich has quite a large international community. Again considering that you will be travelling with an 18 year-old, I will try to recommend trendier places - after all, it seems like just yesterday when I was her age... not!
Hiltl: an institution but still/always trendy and just nicely redone. One of the world's oldest vegetarian restaurants with OK food including a huge buffet - but be careful, they weigh your plate and it's not cheap (I'm serious!)
www.hiltl.ch
La Salle: located on the west edge of town in a redeveloped former industrial area, this restaurant is part of a cultural complex set in a former factory. The decor is attractive and the food is fine, with mains in the CHF 35 to 40 range. Reservation necessary.
http://www.lasalle-restaurant.ch/
The complex also holds the second stage of the city theater an excellent jazz club called Moods
www.moods.ch
and a fun bar on the roof (you need to look for the elevator) which both you and your daughter should enjoy - just as a reminder, the drinking age in Switzerland and most of Europe is 16 for wine/beer and 18 for hard liquor.
A "homier" alternative is Wirtschaft Neugass, especially nice when you can eat in the garden. Mains about CHF 30. Reservation necessary.
http://www.wirtschaft-neumarkt.ch/
A very casual alternative with great people watching is the upscale "food court" at the Globus store on Theaterstrasse just off the Bellevue intersection (not the main store just off the Bahnhofstrasse). You can choose from several different cuisines and the people watching is excellent. Alternatively, Zurich's most famous sausage stand, the "Vorderer Stern" is just down the block.
By the way, weather permitting, you could easily use your "extra" day for a day trip and get a lot closer to the mountains - let me know if you would like some suggestions. Re: the post by "TimS" - he must have read the train schedule wrong. The routing he describes takes at least 5.5 hours between Zurich and Geneva, vs. just under 3 using the main line...
Finally, you will be passing through Avignon on the way to Toulon, which is a must-see IMO. Perhaps you want to break up your journey there instead, even though you will have almost arrived at your final destination by then...
Hope this helps,
Andre
Sorry I haven't answered earlier, work has been a killer.
Anyway, regarding "must dos" and "authentic, non-touristy" restaurants in Zurich I can offer the following.
A) Must do
1) Shopping with a city tour on the side
With an 18-year old girl I suppose shopping would be highest on the agenda. The mainstream stores (department stores, H&M and the like) are on the Bahnhofstrasse heading from the train station to the Lake, with the shops getting more upscale as you go towards the lake.
A must-stop is the main Sprüngli pastry shop at Paradeplatz. They are most famous for their "Luxemburgerli", which are basically Oreos, if the cookie dough were a light meringue, and the filling were available in such flavours as chocolate, pistachio, coffee, strawberry and champagne/chocolate (my favourite) ;-) But most anything is good there - they have a large cafe upstairs as well if you want to sit down and/or order an actual meal. Rennweg is a very nice pedestrian shopping street which will lead you over a hill and through neighbouring streets in the old expensive some slightly less so and to the Limmat river. You can also head up to the Lindenhof, a small park with a pretty lookout over the old town and the river.
Across the river you will find the Niederdorf, which until about 10 years ago was quite seedy but is a fun mix now. There are some really pretty streets around Rindermark/Neumarkt and of course shopping everywhere.
There are a two churches (Fraumünster and Grossmünster) in the sections of town I just described with beautiful stained glass windows - check the Zurich destination pages on this site for more info
2) Museums:
If you're into culture, the Kunsthaus' permanent collection of painting and sculpture (Giacometti!) is first rate and they currently have two exhibitions I absolutely want to catch: Saul Steinberg and a private collection of Swiss Avant-Garde painters from the early 20th century.
www.kunsthaus.ch
The Rietberg museum has a world-class collection of asian art and is located in a beautiful park with nice views of the lake.
http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/internet...lish/home.html
B) Restaurants
Since Zurich is not that much of a tourist town, you would almost need to look for touristy restaurants on purpose. "Authentic" restaurants will also have lots of non-Swiss people eating there, simply because Zurich has quite a large international community. Again considering that you will be travelling with an 18 year-old, I will try to recommend trendier places - after all, it seems like just yesterday when I was her age... not!
Hiltl: an institution but still/always trendy and just nicely redone. One of the world's oldest vegetarian restaurants with OK food including a huge buffet - but be careful, they weigh your plate and it's not cheap (I'm serious!)
www.hiltl.ch
La Salle: located on the west edge of town in a redeveloped former industrial area, this restaurant is part of a cultural complex set in a former factory. The decor is attractive and the food is fine, with mains in the CHF 35 to 40 range. Reservation necessary.
http://www.lasalle-restaurant.ch/
The complex also holds the second stage of the city theater an excellent jazz club called Moods
www.moods.ch
and a fun bar on the roof (you need to look for the elevator) which both you and your daughter should enjoy - just as a reminder, the drinking age in Switzerland and most of Europe is 16 for wine/beer and 18 for hard liquor.
A "homier" alternative is Wirtschaft Neugass, especially nice when you can eat in the garden. Mains about CHF 30. Reservation necessary.
http://www.wirtschaft-neumarkt.ch/
A very casual alternative with great people watching is the upscale "food court" at the Globus store on Theaterstrasse just off the Bellevue intersection (not the main store just off the Bahnhofstrasse). You can choose from several different cuisines and the people watching is excellent. Alternatively, Zurich's most famous sausage stand, the "Vorderer Stern" is just down the block.
By the way, weather permitting, you could easily use your "extra" day for a day trip and get a lot closer to the mountains - let me know if you would like some suggestions. Re: the post by "TimS" - he must have read the train schedule wrong. The routing he describes takes at least 5.5 hours between Zurich and Geneva, vs. just under 3 using the main line...
Finally, you will be passing through Avignon on the way to Toulon, which is a must-see IMO. Perhaps you want to break up your journey there instead, even though you will have almost arrived at your final destination by then...
Hope this helps,
Andre
Sep 3rd, 2008, 09:04 AM
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TimS,
I understand, but the times you gave are just plain wrong and would have led fenian to miss her connection in Geneva by several hours.
To take the route you suggest and make the TGV leaving Geneva at 13:44, she would have to leave Zurich at 8:00, not 10:26 as you wrote. Her journey would turn into a 10 hour odyssey with 5 train changes...
I understand, but the times you gave are just plain wrong and would have led fenian to miss her connection in Geneva by several hours.
To take the route you suggest and make the TGV leaving Geneva at 13:44, she would have to leave Zurich at 8:00, not 10:26 as you wrote. Her journey would turn into a 10 hour odyssey with 5 train changes...
Sep 3rd, 2008, 09:13 AM
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P.S. the Golden Pass route is very pretty, but does not get into the heart of the Alps or go up any summits.
IMO, the only mountain railways in Switzerland that are really worth a detour/journey are:
- Gornergrat from Zermatt
- the Jungfraujoch circuit from Interlaken (also worthwhile if you don't go further than Kleine Scheidegg)
- Rigi
- Pilatus
Haven't made it to Rochers-de-Naye above Montreux yet, but it's also supposed to be very nice.
Obviously, there are numerous cablecars and funiculars that I also consider worth a detour/journey.
Hope this helps,
Andre
IMO, the only mountain railways in Switzerland that are really worth a detour/journey are:
- Gornergrat from Zermatt
- the Jungfraujoch circuit from Interlaken (also worthwhile if you don't go further than Kleine Scheidegg)
- Rigi
- Pilatus
Haven't made it to Rochers-de-Naye above Montreux yet, but it's also supposed to be very nice.
Obviously, there are numerous cablecars and funiculars that I also consider worth a detour/journey.
Hope this helps,
Andre
Sep 3rd, 2008, 10:42 AM
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Andre,
Thanks for your comments on the Golden Pass route. Just for the record, I wrote that fenian could leave Zurich EARLY in the morning and take regional trains as far as ZWEISIMMEN for a departure on the Golden Pass train from there at 10:26. At least that is what I learned from the timetables at www.bahn.de.
Thanks for your comments on the Golden Pass route. Just for the record, I wrote that fenian could leave Zurich EARLY in the morning and take regional trains as far as ZWEISIMMEN for a departure on the Golden Pass train from there at 10:26. At least that is what I learned from the timetables at www.bahn.de.
Sep 3rd, 2008, 11:22 AM
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Note that with railpasses you may find it impossible to get on TGVs on the Lyon-toulon line unless you book far in advance.
I've heard lots of complaints and have personal knowledge of this - you go to the ticket window and ask for the needed (3 euro) reservation fee for passholders and they say none remain - no pass fares remain - but they will sell you a full-price ticket for the same train.
Tip- book this train when you buy your Eurailpasses before leaving - not sure you can make these reservations easily outside of France. That said many railpass agents do not make seat reservations - Rick Steves is one - either go to www.raileurope.com or as i always advise for their expertise and personal service by phone www.budgeteuropetravel.com - if you buy a pass and later want to make a reservation in the U.S. you will incur unnecessary mailing fees IME
There is a serious chance IME if you just show up at Lyon or whatever and try to make this reservation you may be faced paying for a regular ticket.
I've heard lots of complaints and have personal knowledge of this - you go to the ticket window and ask for the needed (3 euro) reservation fee for passholders and they say none remain - no pass fares remain - but they will sell you a full-price ticket for the same train.
Tip- book this train when you buy your Eurailpasses before leaving - not sure you can make these reservations easily outside of France. That said many railpass agents do not make seat reservations - Rick Steves is one - either go to www.raileurope.com or as i always advise for their expertise and personal service by phone www.budgeteuropetravel.com - if you buy a pass and later want to make a reservation in the U.S. you will incur unnecessary mailing fees IME
There is a serious chance IME if you just show up at Lyon or whatever and try to make this reservation you may be faced paying for a regular ticket.
