Racism in Salzburg
Aug 19th, 2007, 02:00 AM
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Racism in Salzburg
Salzburg in the year 2007-pretty to look at perhaps, but overall a great, big, shocking, disappointment. Our experience there was one of racist incidences and rude residents. It seems the attitudes of some of its residents is anything but pretty.
My mother and I are Indian. We have lived in many different continents, have travelled a huge amount and visited many countries. We, as worldwide travellers, have never experienced such a sour place as Salzburg. Having travelled since childhood, I have never experienced something as awful as this.
My mother and I took the train from Vienna to Salzburg last week.
When we got to our hotel:
1) We booked a tour to see Salzburg's lakes and mountains (35 euros) and inquired about the 'Lakes and Mountains' tour.
Our hotel booked us onto the coach and a minivan arrived to pick us up to take us to the coach. When we got to the coach, the coach driver stopped my mother and I from getting onto the coach. He first claimed the coach was full, but that, we would be taken on a 'private' tour in a minivan identical to the one which had brought us to the coach earlier. Later, however, his excuse changed- he told us this private arrangement was better for us because the coach had people from only European countries and that as we would have a private tour, we would not have to sit through commentary in different European languages, and would only be guided in English. There was only one other group with us on the minivan- a young Arab couple from Dubai; the wife with her hair covered, were the only others to join my mother and I on this private tour. The tour description said that: we were meant to be given time in the small town of St. Gilgen to shop before being taken back to our hotel via the same route as we came on so that we could see the lakes and mountains again on our way back.
Instead what happened was: our minivan driver/tour guide informed us that he had to be back at 6pm and that therefore we could have just 15 minutes to look around St. Gilgen and that he would take the motorway back to Salzburg instead of the normal (scenic route). The man from the couple from Dubai asked whether we could have a bit more time in St. Gilgen, but this was denied. Therefore, on our way back to Salzburg, we saw nothing but motorway.
2) The next day, we went shopping and sightseeing in Salzburg. We went into a shop in the center close to the St. Peter's church. While searching for souvenirs, suddenly the shop owner came up to me and started shouting at me 'YOU PEOPLE will destroy everything and you will not pay for it, I know this!' I asked her to be calm and told her that she could not speak to me that way but she continued shouting. Finally, I told her very, very directly and loudly but without shouting, 'You cannot speak to me like that!' and not to be rude. As there were other customers in the shop she began to protest that she was not rude. We really were totally disgusted by her behavior- and it is shocking to see racism so openly in this day and age, particulary from people who depend on foreigners for their livelihood. We left the shop and continued to look around as we had a few hours before we needed to get to the train station to go back to Vienna. As the weather was chilly and my mother wanted to try some Austrian cakes, we looked for a cafe.
3) We left the shop and went into a cafe in the square which has the yellow house which was Mozart's birthplace- right in the heart of Salzburg's tourist area. Opposite Mozart's birthplace, in the corner, there was an outdoor cafe. When we took our seats, a young couple and everyone in the bar began to stare at us openly. My mother asked the waitress if she could see some cakes. The woman looked very irritated, but brought a plate which had slices of many different types of cakes arranged on it. She held it up quite high so my mother could not really see what was on the plate. My mother asked her what each of the cakes were. My mother politely asked 'Can you please lower the plate a bit because I can't see what they are' and asked her if she could put the plate on the table. The woman flat out said no. I cannot understand why she could not, as it was only a display plate and not for serving. We finally ordered one piece of Mozart cake and two coffees, but in retrospect given the racist nature of the cafe we should have left. The whole time we were there, the couple stared at us and whispered and the people at the bar also stared at us.
I have lived and worked in several European cities and I have never encountered behaviour as despicable as that in Salzburg. Racism in any form is ofcourse totally unacceptable, and it is wholly intolerable and unacceptable coming from people who are making their living from the tourism industry.
Having seen much of Europe I can say this: There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. As for me, Salzburg is definitely off the list.
My mother and I are Indian. We have lived in many different continents, have travelled a huge amount and visited many countries. We, as worldwide travellers, have never experienced such a sour place as Salzburg. Having travelled since childhood, I have never experienced something as awful as this.
My mother and I took the train from Vienna to Salzburg last week.
When we got to our hotel:
1) We booked a tour to see Salzburg's lakes and mountains (35 euros) and inquired about the 'Lakes and Mountains' tour.
Our hotel booked us onto the coach and a minivan arrived to pick us up to take us to the coach. When we got to the coach, the coach driver stopped my mother and I from getting onto the coach. He first claimed the coach was full, but that, we would be taken on a 'private' tour in a minivan identical to the one which had brought us to the coach earlier. Later, however, his excuse changed- he told us this private arrangement was better for us because the coach had people from only European countries and that as we would have a private tour, we would not have to sit through commentary in different European languages, and would only be guided in English. There was only one other group with us on the minivan- a young Arab couple from Dubai; the wife with her hair covered, were the only others to join my mother and I on this private tour. The tour description said that: we were meant to be given time in the small town of St. Gilgen to shop before being taken back to our hotel via the same route as we came on so that we could see the lakes and mountains again on our way back.
Instead what happened was: our minivan driver/tour guide informed us that he had to be back at 6pm and that therefore we could have just 15 minutes to look around St. Gilgen and that he would take the motorway back to Salzburg instead of the normal (scenic route). The man from the couple from Dubai asked whether we could have a bit more time in St. Gilgen, but this was denied. Therefore, on our way back to Salzburg, we saw nothing but motorway.
2) The next day, we went shopping and sightseeing in Salzburg. We went into a shop in the center close to the St. Peter's church. While searching for souvenirs, suddenly the shop owner came up to me and started shouting at me 'YOU PEOPLE will destroy everything and you will not pay for it, I know this!' I asked her to be calm and told her that she could not speak to me that way but she continued shouting. Finally, I told her very, very directly and loudly but without shouting, 'You cannot speak to me like that!' and not to be rude. As there were other customers in the shop she began to protest that she was not rude. We really were totally disgusted by her behavior- and it is shocking to see racism so openly in this day and age, particulary from people who depend on foreigners for their livelihood. We left the shop and continued to look around as we had a few hours before we needed to get to the train station to go back to Vienna. As the weather was chilly and my mother wanted to try some Austrian cakes, we looked for a cafe.
3) We left the shop and went into a cafe in the square which has the yellow house which was Mozart's birthplace- right in the heart of Salzburg's tourist area. Opposite Mozart's birthplace, in the corner, there was an outdoor cafe. When we took our seats, a young couple and everyone in the bar began to stare at us openly. My mother asked the waitress if she could see some cakes. The woman looked very irritated, but brought a plate which had slices of many different types of cakes arranged on it. She held it up quite high so my mother could not really see what was on the plate. My mother asked her what each of the cakes were. My mother politely asked 'Can you please lower the plate a bit because I can't see what they are' and asked her if she could put the plate on the table. The woman flat out said no. I cannot understand why she could not, as it was only a display plate and not for serving. We finally ordered one piece of Mozart cake and two coffees, but in retrospect given the racist nature of the cafe we should have left. The whole time we were there, the couple stared at us and whispered and the people at the bar also stared at us.
I have lived and worked in several European cities and I have never encountered behaviour as despicable as that in Salzburg. Racism in any form is ofcourse totally unacceptable, and it is wholly intolerable and unacceptable coming from people who are making their living from the tourism industry.
Having seen much of Europe I can say this: There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. As for me, Salzburg is definitely off the list.
Aug 19th, 2007, 06:35 AM
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There is palable imperial attitude in Vienna. One must remember that Hitler was born in Austria and the Austrians desstroyed one of the great Jewish intellectual circles at the turn of the 20th century.
Do you recall how Kurt Waldheim hid his Nazi background?
As to reporting the racists, to whom are you going to report them and what satisfaction do you expect?
Do you recall how Kurt Waldheim hid his Nazi background?
As to reporting the racists, to whom are you going to report them and what satisfaction do you expect?
Aug 19th, 2007, 07:16 AM
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Wow, this is so disheartening. A recent thread spoke about the civility and decency of Austrian society. It is sad to see that this sequence of events could happen in what is supposed to be an warm and friendly place.
Aug 19th, 2007, 07:36 AM
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There's no excuse for the way you and your mother were treated.
But...regarding the cafe and cakes incident...was the waitress showing that tray of cakes to all the other customers? My experience in Austria (and Germany too) was that you go inside or wherever the cakes are on display to see what they have before making a choice (unless you already know what they have and what you want)...rather than having the server bring a sampler tray to you.
But...regarding the cafe and cakes incident...was the waitress showing that tray of cakes to all the other customers? My experience in Austria (and Germany too) was that you go inside or wherever the cakes are on display to see what they have before making a choice (unless you already know what they have and what you want)...rather than having the server bring a sampler tray to you.
Aug 19th, 2007, 07:39 AM
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I would caution you not to judge an entire city or country on the behavior of a few people in the service industry. How long were you there? 2-3 days?? It really does take much more exposure to a place in a variety of settings (in other words, not just as a consumer of travel services) to get to know how a culture thinks and behaves.
I've been stared at plenty in travel situations where I "stuck out" as different in some way - and treated rudely quite often by shopkeepers and clerks who didn't get far in life and are looking for some way to be better than the world travelers they serve. Sometimes small people can be very small, and racism bleeds through their thin skins. That's part of travel. The trick is not to let your skin get just as thin.
"I have lived and worked in several European cities and I have never encountered behaviour as despicable as that in Salzburg."
No one likes to be mistreated - and it sounds like you were - but I'd say you're a very lucky person if that's as bad as it's ever been for you.
"Having seen much of Europe I can say this: There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. As for me, Salzburg is definitely off the list."
I think judging the Salzburgers after such a short visit is a bit racist as well.
I've been stared at plenty in travel situations where I "stuck out" as different in some way - and treated rudely quite often by shopkeepers and clerks who didn't get far in life and are looking for some way to be better than the world travelers they serve. Sometimes small people can be very small, and racism bleeds through their thin skins. That's part of travel. The trick is not to let your skin get just as thin.
"I have lived and worked in several European cities and I have never encountered behaviour as despicable as that in Salzburg."
No one likes to be mistreated - and it sounds like you were - but I'd say you're a very lucky person if that's as bad as it's ever been for you.
"Having seen much of Europe I can say this: There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. As for me, Salzburg is definitely off the list."
I think judging the Salzburgers after such a short visit is a bit racist as well.
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:06 AM
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When they take persons of color off the regular tour, stick them on a separate bus, and then don't provide the services for which they paid, that is not-so-subtle racism.
Ira, It just seems highly unlikely to me that they could have had so many of these incidents on one trip, I certaintly believe that is does happen, my wife and I could not get waited on in a restaurant in Belgium once and we could have assumed it was because we were Americans, or maybe not. Always enjoy your advice.
Ira, It just seems highly unlikely to me that they could have had so many of these incidents on one trip, I certaintly believe that is does happen, my wife and I could not get waited on in a restaurant in Belgium once and we could have assumed it was because we were Americans, or maybe not. Always enjoy your advice.
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:06 AM
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"I think it's perfectly legitimate for the OP to not want to go back somewhere they were badly treated."
I agree. But the purpose of the post is not to convince the OP's self that Salzburg isn't for her - it's to convince us that we shouldn't go there either.
I agree. But the purpose of the post is not to convince the OP's self that Salzburg isn't for her - it's to convince us that we shouldn't go there either.
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:24 AM
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<<Just an observation. Draw your own conclusions.>>
Had I been treated like that, I would conclude that it was racism. I would also want to blow the whistle on them and would probably do what the OP did.
It is despicable that this happened.
<<I think judging the Salzburgers after such a short visit is a bit racist as well.>>
Russ - calling a racist "racist" isn't racism.
Had I been treated like that, I would conclude that it was racism. I would also want to blow the whistle on them and would probably do what the OP did.
It is despicable that this happened.
<<I think judging the Salzburgers after such a short visit is a bit racist as well.>>
Russ - calling a racist "racist" isn't racism.
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:27 AM
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"Reading the details, I think this "report" is a fake."
Why?
I can see how bytheway might have misinterpreted things (I've been called "you people" by the manager emeritus of a New York hotel. Turns out he was senile and thought I was someone he'd fired a few decades back). But what sounds fake?
Why?
I can see how bytheway might have misinterpreted things (I've been called "you people" by the manager emeritus of a New York hotel. Turns out he was senile and thought I was someone he'd fired a few decades back). But what sounds fake?
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:30 AM
#17
I read "bytheway's" thread when s/he first posted it but did not comment. I did notice s/he registered to post this. I have now seen the same post on 3 different websites - all first time posts. There is absolutely NO way to know if any of the events are exactly like described.
They were actually mistreated - or - they are super sensitive to rude behavior and attribute everything to racism - or - simple misunderstandings - or - nothing of the sort happend at all.
you be the judge
They were actually mistreated - or - they are super sensitive to rude behavior and attribute everything to racism - or - simple misunderstandings - or - nothing of the sort happend at all.
you be the judge
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:45 AM
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Obviously the poster wants as many people as possible to know what happened which would explain the same post on different websites.
There's never a way to "know" if ANY event reported here ever really happened the way it was described, whether you think you can "trust" somebody or not.
Take the whole thing for what it is worth; for some it will obviously be worth more than it is to others.
There's never a way to "know" if ANY event reported here ever really happened the way it was described, whether you think you can "trust" somebody or not.
Take the whole thing for what it is worth; for some it will obviously be worth more than it is to others.
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:45 AM
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Well, we do not know what "searching for souvenirs" means in this context.
Did the OP just go into a shop and start rummaging?
This would not have been popular with an Austrian shopkeeper.
Was the waitress just passing through with a plate of cakes for somebody else?
Finally, does the OP speak German?
It's easy for misunderstandings to occur if you don't know the language.
Did the OP just go into a shop and start rummaging?
This would not have been popular with an Austrian shopkeeper.
Was the waitress just passing through with a plate of cakes for somebody else?
Finally, does the OP speak German?
It's easy for misunderstandings to occur if you don't know the language.
Aug 19th, 2007, 08:57 AM
#20
"<i>Did the OP just go into a shop and start rummaging?</i>"
It was when I got to the "While searching for souvenirs, suddenly the shop owner came up to me and started shouting at me 'YOU PEOPLE will destroy everything and you will not pay for it" bit that I started to wonder.
If the OP is used to traveling in places where customers pick up items to examine them I can see this being a true misunderstanding. The first time I went to Paris many years ago I did not undersatnd that the shop staff should offer items to me. I just picked up a silk scarf like I would back home -- and BOY did I get yelled at. Well not "yelled", more snarled. But it was clear the shopkeeper didn't appreciate it one bit.
If I was of another race I could have easily put it down to racism - whereas she was just blaming me for being a dumb tourist.
like I said - there are at least 4 different ways to read this thread . . . .
It was when I got to the "While searching for souvenirs, suddenly the shop owner came up to me and started shouting at me 'YOU PEOPLE will destroy everything and you will not pay for it" bit that I started to wonder.
If the OP is used to traveling in places where customers pick up items to examine them I can see this being a true misunderstanding. The first time I went to Paris many years ago I did not undersatnd that the shop staff should offer items to me. I just picked up a silk scarf like I would back home -- and BOY did I get yelled at. Well not "yelled", more snarled. But it was clear the shopkeeper didn't appreciate it one bit.
If I was of another race I could have easily put it down to racism - whereas she was just blaming me for being a dumb tourist.
like I said - there are at least 4 different ways to read this thread . . . .
