Racism in Salzburg
Aug 19th, 2007, 09:09 AM
#21
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I have no idea if this is a provocation or actually happened (We don't really know that for ANYTHING posted online, do we?), but it is true that there are up front racist attitudes in Europe. In the US people are more likely to be polite and then make snide racist remarks behind people's back.
Having said this, it is possible that SOME of what occurred resulted from culural misunderstanding. For example, you do not touch the fruit at the open air markets. You point to what you want. If you do the wrong thing, you might get yelled at.
There is a lot of anti foreigner sentiment in Austria. The Austrians feel their culture is under siege from the Turks and can make nasty cracks. There are jokes about the Turks finally taking Vienna.
All of this is one product of the Schengen Treaty. When people get into the "Schengen", they can move anywhere--and do. Europeans have a very view, for example, of what makes a Frenchman a Frenchman. For some, when people take, for example, French nationality (and this is the country with which I am most familiar), they think they should be just like Frenchmen born in France.
In the US, we have a tradition of absorbing immigrants (while hating them at the same time--witness all the idiotic anti Hispanic feeling in the US right now). Europe historically has been made up of small states with relatively homogeneous groups (at least some of them think they are homogeneous).
There are a lot of tensions with the evolution of a modern interracial Europe--which can lead to unpleasant incidents.
If it is any comfort to you, all cultures make nasty cracks about outsiders. By the way, I am not saying this is right or fair, but just that it exists.
Having said this, it is possible that SOME of what occurred resulted from culural misunderstanding. For example, you do not touch the fruit at the open air markets. You point to what you want. If you do the wrong thing, you might get yelled at.
There is a lot of anti foreigner sentiment in Austria. The Austrians feel their culture is under siege from the Turks and can make nasty cracks. There are jokes about the Turks finally taking Vienna.
All of this is one product of the Schengen Treaty. When people get into the "Schengen", they can move anywhere--and do. Europeans have a very view, for example, of what makes a Frenchman a Frenchman. For some, when people take, for example, French nationality (and this is the country with which I am most familiar), they think they should be just like Frenchmen born in France.
In the US, we have a tradition of absorbing immigrants (while hating them at the same time--witness all the idiotic anti Hispanic feeling in the US right now). Europe historically has been made up of small states with relatively homogeneous groups (at least some of them think they are homogeneous).
There are a lot of tensions with the evolution of a modern interracial Europe--which can lead to unpleasant incidents.
If it is any comfort to you, all cultures make nasty cracks about outsiders. By the way, I am not saying this is right or fair, but just that it exists.
Aug 19th, 2007, 09:24 AM
#24
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I haven't been in Austria..but I love to visit cafes and pastry shops wherever I go..and I've never seen one where they show you at the table the pastries....you have to go to the counter and choose (which I found pretty difficult sometimes, I'm very indecise and the owners start to give me "the look" 
).
).
Aug 19th, 2007, 10:08 AM
#25
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Thank you for all of your comments. Yes, I did post this on some other websites and it is because I was so shocked and upset by all that we experienced. I don't think that is wrong. The comments on here are quite different from those on thorntree, but all are interesting to me. I still find it incredible that all these things could happen to us in just two days. We did meet some nice people too, but the overall feeling we are left with isn't a nice one. Therefore, I have no urge to go back. And I think that is okay. I did want people to know about what we experienced. And now some do. And I feel a little bit better.
Aug 19th, 2007, 10:26 AM
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I have no doubt that you were mistreated. However, we are all mistreated by others for various reasons. People like to judge others based upon their own insecurities and ignorance. But, sometimes it is a cultural difference.
For example, whilst in China, I had boarded an airplane going from Guilin to Xian. The FA passed out a package of some sort of dried peas as a snack. This FA handed me my pack and I instantly flung it into my bag, as I wasn't hungry and acutally feeling tired and sick. Well, you would have though I slapped her across the face. She snarled at me for the entire trip. Later, my guide told me that I had insulted her by not eating what she presented me with. In her eyes, I was saying that I was too good to eat a package of dried peas.
I have also been mistreated for being well-dressed. I can't tell you how many times someone has looked at my Rolex then decided to "cop an attitude" with me. I guess they feel the need to act superior.
Thingorjus
For example, whilst in China, I had boarded an airplane going from Guilin to Xian. The FA passed out a package of some sort of dried peas as a snack. This FA handed me my pack and I instantly flung it into my bag, as I wasn't hungry and acutally feeling tired and sick. Well, you would have though I slapped her across the face. She snarled at me for the entire trip. Later, my guide told me that I had insulted her by not eating what she presented me with. In her eyes, I was saying that I was too good to eat a package of dried peas.
I have also been mistreated for being well-dressed. I can't tell you how many times someone has looked at my Rolex then decided to "cop an attitude" with me. I guess they feel the need to act superior.
Thingorjus
Aug 19th, 2007, 10:57 AM
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I will no longer go anywhere in Europe because of the treatment I received on my last visit. I think my experience proves that those people are hateful and on the verge of becoming Nazis again: One day I was walking through a plaza in front of a little church in Athens. Two little kids came by and started mocking my follicly-chalenged head. I was humiliated. They were obviously put up to this behavior by their neo-fascists parents. I was in tears as they pointed and laughed at my white sneakers and socks as I shrunk away.
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:01 AM
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<<I can't tell you how many times someone has looked at my Rolex then decided to "cop an attitude" with me.>>
please...comparing this to the poster's being kept off a bus because of race is ignorant and insulting
please...comparing this to the poster's being kept off a bus because of race is ignorant and insulting
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:16 AM
#29
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bytheway, 1. is definitely racist, 2. likely, and 3. probably just rude. To some extent, it is part of life, no? We all make broad generalizations based on how we look etc (I had a blond woman business client complain to me the other day that men frequently take her lightly). But, dump Salzburg and NOTHING wrong with your post. At least I would do so.
7-8 years ago, I checked into a ski resort in Flims/Switzerland with 40 business colleagues (a workshop for two weeks). Two of the hotel staff was incredibly rude to one of my African American colleagues. After the first 48 hours, we took the Manager aside and told him to have him apologize and then remove the problem staff for the entire time period we were there or we walk and then sue. It worked like charm, and the manager spent the next two weeks asking everyone "exactly" what would they like to eat for buffet breakfast. Of course, hard to do so when you are alone.
7-8 years ago, I checked into a ski resort in Flims/Switzerland with 40 business colleagues (a workshop for two weeks). Two of the hotel staff was incredibly rude to one of my African American colleagues. After the first 48 hours, we took the Manager aside and told him to have him apologize and then remove the problem staff for the entire time period we were there or we walk and then sue. It worked like charm, and the manager spent the next two weeks asking everyone "exactly" what would they like to eat for buffet breakfast. Of course, hard to do so when you are alone.
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:56 AM
#30
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"the overall feeling we are left with isn't a nice one. Therefore, I have no urge to go back. And I think that is okay. I did want people to know about what we experienced. And now some do. And I feel a little bit better."
I understand not wanting to return, and it's indeed therapeutic to rehash your experience with someone. That's fine.
But you must consider your audience. By posting your message HERE, it comes off as extremely judgmental, if not racist; you're telling the rest of us that we should boycott Salzburg just because you ran into a couple of possibly racist people in your short visit.
"There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. "
It's one thing to tell a friend that you felt mistreated and that you hold all of Salzburg accountable and will never go back.
It's another thing to go online and announce your snap judgments in an effort to smear a group of people. You should expect such subjective conclusions to be challenged and quickly dismissed as such.
I understand not wanting to return, and it's indeed therapeutic to rehash your experience with someone. That's fine.
But you must consider your audience. By posting your message HERE, it comes off as extremely judgmental, if not racist; you're telling the rest of us that we should boycott Salzburg just because you ran into a couple of possibly racist people in your short visit.
"There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. "
It's one thing to tell a friend that you felt mistreated and that you hold all of Salzburg accountable and will never go back.
It's another thing to go online and announce your snap judgments in an effort to smear a group of people. You should expect such subjective conclusions to be challenged and quickly dismissed as such.
Aug 19th, 2007, 12:29 PM
#31
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Some Australian friends of mine were yelled at by shop staff in Austria because they did something they shouldn't..i.e. pick up something to look at it more closely. Staff in touristy shops can be quite uptight and I think that in German speaking countries, things need to be done their way or they just can't handle it (I am thinking about the cakes). Whenever I've been in Berlin for example I've experienced grumpy shop staff. The exception has been Turkish run shops, where I've always found the owners and staff very friendly and helpful. I hope you don't let this get you down too much and keep enjoying your travels.
Aug 19th, 2007, 02:36 PM
#32
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Russ,
I say this with respect.... So long as bytheway is not crude or vulgar or whatever and discusses things-travel appropriate per fodors' guidelines, he/she can post whatever he/she wants. I think we can all make up our own minds about what to do with it. Can't you?
Thanks.
I say this with respect.... So long as bytheway is not crude or vulgar or whatever and discusses things-travel appropriate per fodors' guidelines, he/she can post whatever he/she wants. I think we can all make up our own minds about what to do with it. Can't you?
Thanks.
Aug 19th, 2007, 02:42 PM
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"In the US, we have a tradition of absorbing immigrants (while hating them at the same time--witness all the idiotic anti Hispanic feeling in the US right now)."
Not to continue off subject or anything, but I personally think the US level of "absorbing" immigrants is getting pretty full (including thanks to illegals crossing the border).
But you're right, the feelings are definitely idiotic.
Not to continue off subject or anything, but I personally think the US level of "absorbing" immigrants is getting pretty full (including thanks to illegals crossing the border).
But you're right, the feelings are definitely idiotic.
Aug 19th, 2007, 03:14 PM
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"Russ,
I say this with respect.... So long as bytheway is not crude or vulgar or whatever and discusses things-travel appropriate per fodors' guidelines, he/she can post whatever he/she wants. I think we can all make up our own minds about what to do with it. Can't you?"
Can't I make up my own mind? Clearly, I have.
I've no issue with bytheway's right to post. Plenty of other posters have unfairly judged the French or the Germans or the Italians and posted sweeping statements about them. No reason to ban bytheway for her nonsense. But as long as the rest of us reading bytheway's views respect Fodors guidelines, we in turn are free to comment on the sense or nonsense and the hypocrisy that bytheway or others might display on such travel-related topics.
Aduchamp1, Zeus (funny!), Holly, and others have chimed in as well. Such comments are what comprise discussion boards.
I say this with respect.... So long as bytheway is not crude or vulgar or whatever and discusses things-travel appropriate per fodors' guidelines, he/she can post whatever he/she wants. I think we can all make up our own minds about what to do with it. Can't you?"
Can't I make up my own mind? Clearly, I have.
I've no issue with bytheway's right to post. Plenty of other posters have unfairly judged the French or the Germans or the Italians and posted sweeping statements about them. No reason to ban bytheway for her nonsense. But as long as the rest of us reading bytheway's views respect Fodors guidelines, we in turn are free to comment on the sense or nonsense and the hypocrisy that bytheway or others might display on such travel-related topics.
Aduchamp1, Zeus (funny!), Holly, and others have chimed in as well. Such comments are what comprise discussion boards.
Aug 19th, 2007, 04:01 PM
#36
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bytheway:
I was yelled at at a toy store in Munich when I touched a doll that I wanted to buy for my daughter. I wanted to feel the quality before buying because it was pretty expensive but the store employee just took it away from me. I also remember that a fruit seller in Barcelona wouldn't let me pick and even point at and ask for the fruits that I wanted to buy. She was trying to give me those that looked smaller and less beautiful. It's their way of doing business. As frustrating as it may be, don't take it personal.
I was yelled at at a toy store in Munich when I touched a doll that I wanted to buy for my daughter. I wanted to feel the quality before buying because it was pretty expensive but the store employee just took it away from me. I also remember that a fruit seller in Barcelona wouldn't let me pick and even point at and ask for the fruits that I wanted to buy. She was trying to give me those that looked smaller and less beautiful. It's their way of doing business. As frustrating as it may be, don't take it personal.
Aug 19th, 2007, 04:35 PM
#38
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Russ,
Good. I think we are in agreement. I was going to ask you read OP's message again (<i>It seems the attitudes of <b>some</b> of its residents is anything but pretty.</i> or <i>As for <u>me</u>, Salzburg is definitely off the list.</i
but you are correct, so long as one conforms to fodors' guidelines, everyone, you included, is free to post anything.
My last post on this thread. Have a nice evening.
Good. I think we are in agreement. I was going to ask you read OP's message again (<i>It seems the attitudes of <b>some</b> of its residents is anything but pretty.</i> or <i>As for <u>me</u>, Salzburg is definitely off the list.</i
but you are correct, so long as one conforms to fodors' guidelines, everyone, you included, is free to post anything. My last post on this thread. Have a nice evening.
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