Racism in Salzburg
 

Salzburg in the year 2007-pretty to look at perhaps, but overall a great, big, shocking, disappointment. Our experience there was one of racist incidences and rude residents. It seems the attitudes of some of its residents is anything but pretty.

My mother and I are Indian. We have lived in many different continents, have travelled a huge amount and visited many countries. We, as worldwide travellers, have never experienced such a sour place as Salzburg. Having travelled since childhood, I have never experienced something as awful as this.

My mother and I took the train from Vienna to Salzburg last week.
When we got to our hotel:

1) We booked a tour to see Salzburg's lakes and mountains (35 euros) and inquired about the 'Lakes and Mountains' tour.

Our hotel booked us onto the coach and a minivan arrived to pick us up to take us to the coach. When we got to the coach, the coach driver stopped my mother and I from getting onto the coach. He first claimed the coach was full, but that, we would be taken on a 'private' tour in a minivan identical to the one which had brought us to the coach earlier. Later, however, his excuse changed- he told us this private arrangement was better for us because the coach had people from only European countries and that as we would have a private tour, we would not have to sit through commentary in different European languages, and would only be guided in English. There was only one other group with us on the minivan- a young Arab couple from Dubai; the wife with her hair covered, were the only others to join my mother and I on this private tour. The tour description said that: we were meant to be given time in the small town of St. Gilgen to shop before being taken back to our hotel via the same route as we came on so that we could see the lakes and mountains again on our way back.

Instead what happened was: our minivan driver/tour guide informed us that he had to be back at 6pm and that therefore we could have just 15 minutes to look around St. Gilgen and that he would take the motorway back to Salzburg instead of the normal (scenic route). The man from the couple from Dubai asked whether we could have a bit more time in St. Gilgen, but this was denied. Therefore, on our way back to Salzburg, we saw nothing but motorway.

2) The next day, we went shopping and sightseeing in Salzburg. We went into a shop in the center close to the St. Peter's church. While searching for souvenirs, suddenly the shop owner came up to me and started shouting at me 'YOU PEOPLE will destroy everything and you will not pay for it, I know this!' I asked her to be calm and told her that she could not speak to me that way but she continued shouting. Finally, I told her very, very directly and loudly but without shouting, 'You cannot speak to me like that!' and not to be rude. As there were other customers in the shop she began to protest that she was not rude. We really were totally disgusted by her behavior- and it is shocking to see racism so openly in this day and age, particulary from people who depend on foreigners for their livelihood. We left the shop and continued to look around as we had a few hours before we needed to get to the train station to go back to Vienna. As the weather was chilly and my mother wanted to try some Austrian cakes, we looked for a cafe.

3) We left the shop and went into a cafe in the square which has the yellow house which was Mozart's birthplace- right in the heart of Salzburg's tourist area. Opposite Mozart's birthplace, in the corner, there was an outdoor cafe. When we took our seats, a young couple and everyone in the bar began to stare at us openly. My mother asked the waitress if she could see some cakes. The woman looked very irritated, but brought a plate which had slices of many different types of cakes arranged on it. She held it up quite high so my mother could not really see what was on the plate. My mother asked her what each of the cakes were. My mother politely asked 'Can you please lower the plate a bit because I can't see what they are' and asked her if she could put the plate on the table. The woman flat out said no. I cannot understand why she could not, as it was only a display plate and not for serving. We finally ordered one piece of Mozart cake and two coffees, but in retrospect given the racist nature of the cafe we should have left. The whole time we were there, the couple stared at us and whispered and the people at the bar also stared at us.

I have lived and worked in several European cities and I have never encountered behaviour as despicable as that in Salzburg. Racism in any form is ofcourse totally unacceptable, and it is wholly intolerable and unacceptable coming from people who are making their living from the tourism industry.

Having seen much of Europe I can say this: There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. As for me, Salzburg is definitely off the list.

Hi B,

Very saddened to hear of your terrible treatment.

Perhaps someone else can help you with reporting the tour company and getting your money back.

((I))

((I))

There is palable imperial attitude in Vienna. One must remember that Hitler was born in Austria and the Austrians desstroyed one of the great Jewish intellectual circles at the turn of the 20th century.

Do you recall how Kurt Waldheim hid his Nazi background?

As to reporting the racists, to whom are you going to report them and what satisfaction do you expect?

rude maybe, but racist?

Dear R,

When they take persons of color off the regular tour, stick them on a separate bus, and then don't provide the services for which they paid, that is not-so-subtle racism.

((I))

Wow, this is so disheartening. A recent thread spoke about the civility and decency of Austrian society. It is sad to see that this sequence of events could happen in what is supposed to be an warm and friendly place.

There's no excuse for the way you and your mother were treated.

But...regarding the cafe and cakes incident...was the waitress showing that tray of cakes to all the other customers? My experience in Austria (and Germany too) was that you go inside or wherever the cakes are on display to see what they have before making a choice (unless you already know what they have and what you want)...rather than having the server bring a sampler tray to you.

I would caution you not to judge an entire city or country on the behavior of a few people in the service industry. How long were you there? 2-3 days?? It really does take much more exposure to a place in a variety of settings (in other words, not just as a consumer of travel services) to get to know how a culture thinks and behaves.

I've been stared at plenty in travel situations where I "stuck out" as different in some way - and treated rudely quite often by shopkeepers and clerks who didn't get far in life and are looking for some way to be better than the world travelers they serve. Sometimes small people can be very small, and racism bleeds through their thin skins. That's part of travel. The trick is not to let your skin get just as thin.

"I have lived and worked in several European cities and I have never encountered behaviour as despicable as that in Salzburg."

No one likes to be mistreated - and it sounds like you were - but I'd say you're a very lucky person if that's as bad as it's ever been for you.

"Having seen much of Europe I can say this: There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. As for me, Salzburg is definitely off the list."

I think judging the Salzburgers after such a short visit is a bit racist as well.

Sorry about the rude attitude you experienced for which seemed to be your entire visit. Regardless of the length of your stay it was a bad thing to have happen.

I think it's perfectly legitimate for the OP to not want to go back somewhere they were badly treated.

When they take persons of color off the regular tour, stick them on a separate bus, and then don't provide the services for which they paid, that is not-so-subtle racism.

Ira, It just seems highly unlikely to me that they could have had so many of these incidents on one trip, I certaintly believe that is does happen, my wife and I could not get waited on in a restaurant in Belgium once and we could have assumed it was because we were Americans, or maybe not. Always enjoy your advice.

"I think it's perfectly legitimate for the OP to not want to go back somewhere they were badly treated."

I agree. But the purpose of the post is not to convince the OP's self that Salzburg isn't for her - it's to convince us that we shouldn't go there either.

By the way, this is the poster's first and only post. Just like on Thorn Tree, where the same story has appeared today.

Just an observation. Draw your own conclusions.

Reading the details, I think this "report" is a fake.

<<Just an observation. Draw your own conclusions.>>

Had I been treated like that, I would conclude that it was racism. I would also want to blow the whistle on them and would probably do what the OP did.
It is despicable that this happened.


<<I think judging the Salzburgers after such a short visit is a bit racist as well.>>

Russ - calling a racist "racist" isn't racism.

"Reading the details, I think this "report" is a fake."

Why?

I can see how bytheway might have misinterpreted things (I've been called "you people" by the manager emeritus of a New York hotel. Turns out he was senile and thought I was someone he'd fired a few decades back). But what sounds fake?

I read "bytheway's" thread when s/he first posted it but did not comment. I did notice s/he registered to post this. I have now seen the same post on 3 different websites - all first time posts. There is absolutely NO way to know if any of the events are exactly like described.

They were actually mistreated - or - they are super sensitive to rude behavior and attribute everything to racism - or - simple misunderstandings - or - nothing of the sort happend at all.

you be the judge

Obviously the poster wants as many people as possible to know what happened which would explain the same post on different websites.

There's never a way to "know" if ANY event reported here ever really happened the way it was described, whether you think you can "trust" somebody or not.

Take the whole thing for what it is worth; for some it will obviously be worth more than it is to others.

Well, we do not know what "searching for souvenirs" means in this context.
Did the OP just go into a shop and start rummaging?
This would not have been popular with an Austrian shopkeeper.
Was the waitress just passing through with a plate of cakes for somebody else?
Finally, does the OP speak German?
It's easy for misunderstandings to occur if you don't know the language.

&quot;<i>Did the OP just go into a shop and start rummaging?</i>&quot;

It was when I got to the &quot;While searching for souvenirs, suddenly the shop owner came up to me and started shouting at me 'YOU PEOPLE will destroy everything and you will not pay for it&quot; bit that I started to wonder.

If the OP is used to traveling in places where customers pick up items to examine them I can see this being a true misunderstanding. The first time I went to Paris many years ago I did not undersatnd that the shop staff should offer items to me. I just picked up a silk scarf like I would back home -- and BOY did I get yelled at. Well not &quot;yelled&quot;, more snarled. But it was clear the shopkeeper didn't appreciate it one bit.

If I was of another race I could have easily put it down to racism - whereas she was just blaming me for being a dumb tourist.

like I said - there are at least 4 different ways to read this thread . . . .

I have no idea if this is a provocation or actually happened (We don't really know that for ANYTHING posted online, do we?), but it is true that there are up front racist attitudes in Europe. In the US people are more likely to be polite and then make snide racist remarks behind people's back.

Having said this, it is possible that SOME of what occurred resulted from culural misunderstanding. For example, you do not touch the fruit at the open air markets. You point to what you want. If you do the wrong thing, you might get yelled at.

There is a lot of anti foreigner sentiment in Austria. The Austrians feel their culture is under siege from the Turks and can make nasty cracks. There are jokes about the Turks finally taking Vienna.

All of this is one product of the Schengen Treaty. When people get into the &quot;Schengen&quot;, they can move anywhere--and do. Europeans have a very view, for example, of what makes a Frenchman a Frenchman. For some, when people take, for example, French nationality (and this is the country with which I am most familiar), they think they should be just like Frenchmen born in France.

In the US, we have a tradition of absorbing immigrants (while hating them at the same time--witness all the idiotic anti Hispanic feeling in the US right now). Europe historically has been made up of small states with relatively homogeneous groups (at least some of them think they are homogeneous).

There are a lot of tensions with the evolution of a modern interracial Europe--which can lead to unpleasant incidents.

If it is any comfort to you, all cultures make nasty cracks about outsiders. By the way, I am not saying this is right or fair, but just that it exists.

I would note that the name &quot;bytheway&quot; has only posted on this thread on fodors.

I wouldn't jump to the &quot;racist&quot; conclusion. It could be quite simply that the residents are suffering from mid-summer tourist burnout.

I haven't been in Austria..but I love to visit cafes and pastry shops wherever I go..and I've never seen one where they show you at the table the pastries....you have to go to the counter and choose (which I found pretty difficult sometimes, I'm very indecise and the owners start to give me &quot;the look&quot; ;) ).

Thank you for all of your comments. Yes, I did post this on some other websites and it is because I was so shocked and upset by all that we experienced. I don't think that is wrong. The comments on here are quite different from those on thorntree, but all are interesting to me. I still find it incredible that all these things could happen to us in just two days. We did meet some nice people too, but the overall feeling we are left with isn't a nice one. Therefore, I have no urge to go back. And I think that is okay. I did want people to know about what we experienced. And now some do. And I feel a little bit better.

I have no doubt that you were mistreated. However, we are all mistreated by others for various reasons. People like to judge others based upon their own insecurities and ignorance. But, sometimes it is a cultural difference.

For example, whilst in China, I had boarded an airplane going from Guilin to Xian. The FA passed out a package of some sort of dried peas as a snack. This FA handed me my pack and I instantly flung it into my bag, as I wasn't hungry and acutally feeling tired and sick. Well, you would have though I slapped her across the face. She snarled at me for the entire trip. Later, my guide told me that I had insulted her by not eating what she presented me with. In her eyes, I was saying that I was too good to eat a package of dried peas.

I have also been mistreated for being well-dressed. I can't tell you how many times someone has looked at my Rolex then decided to &quot;cop an attitude&quot; with me. I guess they feel the need to act superior.

Thingorjus

I will no longer go anywhere in Europe because of the treatment I received on my last visit. I think my experience proves that those people are hateful and on the verge of becoming Nazis again: One day I was walking through a plaza in front of a little church in Athens. Two little kids came by and started mocking my follicly-chalenged head. I was humiliated. They were obviously put up to this behavior by their neo-fascists parents. I was in tears as they pointed and laughed at my white sneakers and socks as I shrunk away.

&lt;&lt;I can't tell you how many times someone has looked at my Rolex then decided to &quot;cop an attitude&quot; with me.&gt;&gt;

please...comparing this to the poster's being kept off a bus because of race is ignorant and insulting

bytheway, 1. is definitely racist, 2. likely, and 3. probably just rude. To some extent, it is part of life, no? We all make broad generalizations based on how we look etc (I had a blond woman business client complain to me the other day that men frequently take her lightly). But, dump Salzburg and NOTHING wrong with your post. At least I would do so.

7-8 years ago, I checked into a ski resort in Flims/Switzerland with 40 business colleagues (a workshop for two weeks). Two of the hotel staff was incredibly rude to one of my African American colleagues. After the first 48 hours, we took the Manager aside and told him to have him apologize and then remove the problem staff for the entire time period we were there or we walk and then sue. It worked like charm, and the manager spent the next two weeks asking everyone &quot;exactly&quot; what would they like to eat for buffet breakfast. Of course, hard to do so when you are alone.

&quot;the overall feeling we are left with isn't a nice one. Therefore, I have no urge to go back. And I think that is okay. I did want people to know about what we experienced. And now some do. And I feel a little bit better.&quot;

I understand not wanting to return, and it's indeed therapeutic to rehash your experience with someone. That's fine.

But you must consider your audience. By posting your message HERE, it comes off as extremely judgmental, if not racist; you're telling the rest of us that we should boycott Salzburg just because you ran into a couple of possibly racist people in your short visit.

&quot;There are many, many beautiful places to see and spend your hard-earned salaries. &quot;

It's one thing to tell a friend that you felt mistreated and that you hold all of Salzburg accountable and will never go back.

It's another thing to go online and announce your snap judgments in an effort to smear a group of people. You should expect such subjective conclusions to be challenged and quickly dismissed as such.

Some Australian friends of mine were yelled at by shop staff in Austria because they did something they shouldn't..i.e. pick up something to look at it more closely. Staff in touristy shops can be quite uptight and I think that in German speaking countries, things need to be done their way or they just can't handle it (I am thinking about the cakes). Whenever I've been in Berlin for example I've experienced grumpy shop staff. The exception has been Turkish run shops, where I've always found the owners and staff very friendly and helpful. I hope you don't let this get you down too much and keep enjoying your travels.

Russ,

I say this with respect.... So long as bytheway is not crude or vulgar or whatever and discusses things-travel appropriate per fodors' guidelines, he/she can post whatever he/she wants. I think we can all make up our own minds about what to do with it. Can't you?

Thanks.

&quot;In the US, we have a tradition of absorbing immigrants (while hating them at the same time--witness all the idiotic anti Hispanic feeling in the US right now).&quot;

Not to continue off subject or anything, but I personally think the US level of &quot;absorbing&quot; immigrants is getting pretty full (including thanks to illegals crossing the border).
But you're right, the feelings are definitely idiotic.

lol, Zeus. You probably brought it on yourself by failing to wear all black.

&quot;Russ,

I say this with respect.... So long as bytheway is not crude or vulgar or whatever and discusses things-travel appropriate per fodors' guidelines, he/she can post whatever he/she wants. I think we can all make up our own minds about what to do with it. Can't you?&quot;

Can't I make up my own mind? Clearly, I have.

I've no issue with bytheway's right to post. Plenty of other posters have unfairly judged the French or the Germans or the Italians and posted sweeping statements about them. No reason to ban bytheway for her nonsense. But as long as the rest of us reading bytheway's views respect Fodors guidelines, we in turn are free to comment on the sense or nonsense and the hypocrisy that bytheway or others might display on such travel-related topics.

Aduchamp1, Zeus (funny!), Holly, and others have chimed in as well. Such comments are what comprise discussion boards.

bytheway:

I was yelled at at a toy store in Munich when I touched a doll that I wanted to buy for my daughter. I wanted to feel the quality before buying because it was pretty expensive but the store employee just took it away from me. I also remember that a fruit seller in Barcelona wouldn't let me pick and even point at and ask for the fruits that I wanted to buy. She was trying to give me those that looked smaller and less beautiful. It's their way of doing business. As frustrating as it may be, don't take it personal.

bytheway,

I am really sorry for what happened to you and your mother.

Thank you for posting this.

-e

Russ,

Good. I think we are in agreement. I was going to ask you read OP's message again (<i>It seems the attitudes of <b>some</b> of its residents is anything but pretty.</i> or <i>As for <u>me</u>, Salzburg is definitely off the list.</i>) but you are correct, so long as one conforms to fodors' guidelines, everyone, you included, is free to post anything.

My last post on this thread. Have a nice evening.

bytheway,

I am sorry this happened to you and your mother on this trip. I can only imagine how upset I would have been in your shoes.

Regards,

Leely