Question re "coffee shops"
 

Samantha brown is visiting Amsterdam today, and stopped in at a "coffee shop".

I wonder why subjecting the staff in a pub to secondhand tobacco smoke is considered dangerous to their health, but there is not the same concern about secondhand marijuana smoke.

((I))

Well there is, but not because of the pot smoke which many studies say is not harmful - lots of studies sponsored by government indicate it is but they use the leaves in their studies and not the flowers which have very little harmful stuff apparently - point is studies can be gerrymandered, but anyway most Europeans in coffeeshops also smoke tobacco so these places are incredibly smokey - many Europeans will make spliffs- mix the cannabis or hash with tobacco, so they should fall under the same laws, which have not been implemented in Holland in pubs - they may well be soon and coffeeshops will have to fall under them - personally i think it will be a long time before Holland actually implements these laws in this tobacco loving land.

Simple, Ira..because more people smoke tobacco products than marijuana and after all, we don't want to open any cans of worms regarding the fact that nicotine is a drug now do we?

The other issue is the many chemicals that are put into cigarettes to enchance the flavor, make them burn evenly and help with the overall addiction, many of them identified as possibly carcinigenic.
Most of the time, pot is pot.

Oh if i were 25 and could work behind the counter in a Dutch coffeeshop - Nirvana - i'd let the secondhand smoke bother me all day - these are plum jobs and i guess because of the secondhand smoke (and firsthand smoke as i see many of them toking on the job) makes for a happy worker. Not if it weren't for all those 276 zillions carcinogens in tobacco smoke they also suck in.

Would a coffeeshop without smoke still be a coffeeshop? We would lose what is unique in the world - a place to go and legally smoke cannabis with others in a mellow place - not for everybody but an incredible experience for those so inclined. A coffeeshop without smoke? Now that leaves me fuming!

Ira: I don't understand your point/question. Does she not tour restaurants or coffee shops where they only smoke cigarettes? Did I miss a thread to which this one relates?
(I just began taping the show thanks to a heads up from this board; it appears to be the only European travel show I can find on a regular basis).

<Would a coffeeshop without smoke still be a coffeeshop?> PalQ, maybe they could have ones that are non-cigarette-smoking but keep the hooch!
:-)

Hey folks,

We identify the compounds in smoke from any soource by varioous devices, the most important of which is Gel Permeation Chromatography.

I have seen GPC spectra of smoke from tobacco, marijuana, tea leaves, and various other plant cellulosics. They all have the same unhealthy products.

As far as I can tell, and others more expert than I agree, smoke is smoke. It's all unhealthy.

So, if smoking tobacco is not permitted because of health effects on the staff, why is smoking marijuana allowed?

((I))

Well alfresco coffeeshops may be the answer. No pot smoke even though it may have traces of same toxic stuff is not lethal - many reliable sources say no death has ever been attributed to pot smoke - again it's how they do the tests - they often test the leaves which no one smokes and not the bud - if you did tests on tobacco with tobacco flowers you'd get more benign results as well perhaps - i'm no scientist but to imply that pot and tobacco smoke have the same unhealthy things is simply bad science from what i have read, quite extensively on the subject - refer to the like of Lester Greenspoon of the Harvard Medical School for example who has researched this and comes to similar conclusions. There may be some negative thing in pot smoke - like you say smoke can't be all good but its harmful effect pale in comparison to tobacco. the GPC spectra of marijuana - was it of the leaves or just the bud - this is crucial to saying whether the results are meaningful. Respectively disagreeing.

Keywest,
I'm not sure I agree that "pot is pot". I'm not saying you're wrong it's just that (in the U.S.) how does anyone really know what insecticides are used on marijuana? Unless one grows it themselves or knows the grower it's impossible to caculate.
It seems the only safe way to ingest pot is to eat it. But oh the calories in those brownies!

Hi Pal,

Would you please give me a citation for Lester Greenspoon's work on the composition of marijuana smoke compared to tobacco smoke?

All I have found is that he thinks marijuana is medically useful, a position with which I do not disagree.

((I))

PS,

You might find this interesting:

"Like tobacco, marijuana smoke contains toxins that are known to be hazardous to the respiratory system. Among them are the highly carcinogenic polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons, a prime suspect in cigarette-related cancers".

http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizers.html

Also, this, from http://www.torontohemp.com/mapsnorml.htm

"..the combusted [marijuana] smoke contained over 100 other chemicals, including several polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), carcinogenic toxins that are common in tobacco smoke. The respiratory hazards of marijuana and tobacco smoke are due to toxic byproducts of combustion, not the active ingredients in the plant..."

generally, where there are smoking bans, cigar bars/clubs are excluded as the smoking is central to the business. therefore, i don't see the inconsistency with "coffee shops" allowing smoking.

not a very interesting topic.

Well Ira the Lester Greensppon, no i don't have exact reference but his point is that marijuana is one of the least harmful substances abused by man. Nearly no harmful effects documentecd - in fact that no studies have ever shown any serious harmful effect studies
that indicate that pot use produces ill effects, please cte them: The real story will not be clear until the NIH reverses their knee-jerk history of not funding cannabis studies - the Bush administration's want to prosecute medicinal mairijuana uses proof of that. Anyway as I asked you did the GPC spectra analysis you cited come from marijuana leaves or flowers as I asked before - this is very crucial in giving any validity to your conclustions based on it?

Hi PAL,

The GPC spectra were from tobacco leaves and marijuana leaves.

The question here is not whether M is good or bad for you, but why second hand smoke from one cellulosic substance is considered dangerous, while secondhand smoke, containing the same bad stuff, from another cellulosic substance isn't.

((I))

Oh my, yes! - an hour's worth of exposure to casual pot smoke chopped untold seconds off the life span of her film crew! Such nonsense! (whoever she is - never heard of her, guess I'm outta touch)

The exposure to gamma rays, electomagnetic radiation, ultraviolet, radon and outdoor environmental pollutants they encountered on this trip were probably more of a (minuscule) health risk for them. Everyone has exposure to all of these on a daily basis.

maybe i'm just missing something but who is saying that pot smoke is totally harmless second-hand?

if you put aside all the desires to stir up a debate about (or around) pot smoking, i think you will find that there are a lot of exceptions to this rule so I would not be surprised if the dutch exempted their "coffee shops". anyway, let's not forget that pot in the coffee shops is technically illegal anyway.

maybe i'm missing something but i dont' see such a flagrant inconsistency that merits this debate.

My opinion is that the dangers of second hand tobacco smoke has resulted in laws that are excessive intrusions to freedom. Extensions of the argument to other kinds of smoke/gasses (marijuana, vehicle exhaust, personal flatulence) border on the absurd.

If tobacco is so harmfull to the innocent bystanders, make it illegal. If not, let freedom ring.

It took the govt. forever to research an agree that cigs were killers.We all know what the excec's did!!!The M may not be harmful inhaled ,but it causes alot of injurys and deaths with accidents etc.

As far as accidents go, most customers of coffee shops are taking trains, walking, or at worst, bicycling. You find a very global clientel at coffee shops, people of all classes and races, a VERY PEACEFUL atmosphere, great people watching to say the least!

Donnie D -

I'm with you - we should make tobacco illegal. It is obviously much more dangerous and addictive - and causing many more deaths than many other "dangerous" substances.

Why should everyone else pay the medical bills for all the people who choose to kill themselves with tobacco? Make it illegal - and remove health benefits from people who suffer ill health due to it.

This will make everyone's air much cleaner - plus save us all a lot of tax money - that could be put into something useful - like education.

FYI, coffee houses also sell "space cakes" for those wishing a smoke free relaxing experience ;-) (like brownies)

>>If tobacco is so harmfull to the innocent bystanders, make it illegal. If not, let freedom ring. <<

Even if it wasn't harmful to your health, it's harmful to your smell. Don't smokers know they stink? You can smell them from far away, you know when they've been in an elevator coming back from their dozens of smoking breaks right outside the doors that I have no choice but to go through!

As far as Marijuana, I don't know and really care if it's harmful to me, but again, it smells like sour milk mixed in with a batch of wet dirty smelly socks! To have the smell on me is harmful to my sense of smell!

I live in Switzerland and many people have taken to smoking joints out in the open and in the smoking compartments on the trains. Marijuana smoke stinks twice as much as cigarette smoke. I find it very offensive.