Pronunciation help please!
 

Off to Europe in 3 weeks including the South of France. I would be very appreciative on some guidance on the correct pronunciation of 2 words which I just know are gonna crop up!<BR> - Languedoc (Longwedock?, Looongdock?)<BR> - Boullibasse (sp?) (Bwe-a-basse?)<BR><BR>Thanks to any french posters out there in anticipation!

Try this:<BR>Languedoc: Lang' doc.<BR>Bouillabaise: Boo' ya' bess

French sounds don't come out exactly right in English approximations but <BR><BR>LANG-e-dook (dook rhyming with took)<BR>BWEE ya bes<BR><BR>

for yet another attempt:<BR><BR>lahng a dock<BR>boo ya bess

Checked my dictionary to make sure:<BR><BR>long duck<BR>boo ya bess

Beaucoup - boo or bow? <BR><BR>is there a rule for double l? For example Brouilly? Hotel La Villa?

Beaucoup= bow koo<BR>"ll" is sometimes y like Spanish, but not always. I don't know the exact rule if I ever learned it. I think it's just something you pick up as you go. Example- "million"= mee yon. But "ville" is pronounced veel. Fodors has a pretty good pronunciation/langauge guide for French. Check it out to get the basic feel of the language.<BR>I *think* Brouilly would be Brew yi, and villa is veela. Sorry, I dont know the proper way to write out pronunciation.

boo ya bess? Never!<BR><BR>Bwee ya bess<BR><BR>and the speelling shows how to promounce it<BR><BR>Bouillabaisse<BR><BR>Boui - - just like oui<BR>lla - - as in jeune fille (the terminal "y" sound)<BR>baisse - - rhymes with dress<BR><BR>And ollowing on numerous discussions of the "o" sound - - somewhere between dock and duck.<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Rex<BR>

The Berlitz language guide is great as it not only shows the translation but the phoenetic pronunciation.<BR><BR>Oh yeah, if you are staying at the Paris Hilton, it is pronounced "Otel Ilton." <BR><BR>

Languedoc has only 2 syllables? Don't think so, but the middle syllable is "unvoiced" - just sort of a beat/hesitation between the other two.<BR><BR>

&lt;&lt;Bwee ya bess<BR>and the speelling shows how to promounce it<BR>Bouillabaisse<BR>Boui - - just like oui<BR>lla - - as in jeune fille (the terminal "y" sound)<BR>baisse - - rhymes with dress&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>the above is wrong! boui- is not the same vowel diphthong as the word "oui", it is different and the first syllable is not pronounced bwee. It is indeed pronounced boo-ya-bess, roughly, just like the first syllable of the words bouillir, bouillant, bouilloire etc are NOT "bwee"<BR><BR>"ll" is generally pronounced as y except in a few words that are just exceptions, there isn't any regular rule you can count on, you have to learn them from usage, it seems to me: some common exceptions where it is pronounced like an "l" are "ville" and "tranquille".<BR><BR>

Christina, I started myself to say the "ll" is y rule, but then realised that it isn't really true. I'd say it goes nearly 50/50. Just pop open a dictionary and check--<BR>voiced: mille, village, halle, nulle<BR>unvoiced: fille, Cendrillon, paille<BR>It really does seem to be case by case.

Elaine & Rex: You are wrong! I'm French and I think I should now! bou in front of illa is pronounced boo, not bwe.<BR>the i combines with the lla to form the "ya". Like in nouille, grenouille and scribouille!

Jean<BR>Sorry you asked?<BR>I think the differences of opinion here have as much to do with trying to write French phonetically in English as with pronouncing the French correctly.<BR>If you try any of the above, you will be understood.<BR>good luck

I should really know better by now, but here goes:<BR><BR>Sorry, Rex. Christina and Louis are correct about bouillabaisse. The following is an excerpt from a French Pronunciation guide that I wrote for my students. It would, of course, be easier if you could hear the words pronounced, but the spellings within brackets are my best approximation of the sounds for speakers of English. I realize that this is probably much more than anyone wants to know and there will doubtless be some who will disagree. Tant pis!<BR><BR>VI. Special Case: l and ll [l, silent, or y(uh)]<BR>A. al, all, el, ell, ol, oll, ul, ull -[l] - bal, balle, bel, belle, ciel, col, colle, nul, nulle, ballon, b&eacute;lier, melon, &eacute;colier, poulet<BR>B. il - [l] - fil [feel], cil [seel], OR<BR>[silent] - gentil [jah(n)tee], persil [pehrsee]<BR>C. ill - usually [eey(uh)] - gentille, fille, sillon, billet OR<BR>rarely [eel] - ville, village, tranquille, mille (and compounds)<BR><BR>D. vowel (single or compound) + il or ill - [that vowel sound + y(uh)]<BR>ail, aill - [a-y(uh)] - travail, &eacute;mail, caillou, travaillons<BR>eil, eill - [ eh-y(uh)] - soleil, abeille, meilleur<BR>euil, euill - [uh-y(uh)] - deuil, feuille, &eacute;cureuil<BR>ouil, ouill - [oo-y(uh)] - bouillir, ratatouille, fouille<BR>uil, uill - [ewee-y(uh)] - juillet, cuill&egrave;re (this one is slightly different, in that the i is pronounced in combination with the u, whereas in the ones above, the i is not pronounced at all)<BR><BR>I'm not sure how this will appear on the page when posted. Hope it is legible and that someone will find it helpful.<BR><BR>

Thanks, Betty, for great information. <BR><BR>No one should ever trust Rex for info on French pronounciation - he's dead wrong 100 percent of the time, even though he's always one of the first to jump in. I hope his Italian's better, but one has to wonder.

Nobody has yet thought to point out that the stress in these two words is on the final syllable.<BR><BR>So, 'boo ya BESS' and 'long (guh) DOC'. The 'guh' is not really a syllable at all, but, as MM says, a 'g' sound with a tiny breath following. You can't say 'g' and 'd' together in any language.<BR>Harzer<BR><BR>Most English words of more than one syllable stress the first syllable, but the French perversely usually stress the final one. Since we each transfer our own pronunciation norms to the other language, we all come out with a foreign accent.

Harzer: you're very right about the difference in stress, but please tell us what makes it "pervert" to say Pa-ree iso P&agrave;ris, or "per-v&egrave;rt" iso "p&egrave;r-vert"..? As far as I know, it is characteristic of all roman languages.<BR>Greetings to Harz-bo&ugrave;rg ! :-)

To Harker: Where did you study French? Or English, for that matter?<BR>In English, words of more than one syllable do NOT necessarily stress the first syllable; my dictionary points out in the guide to pronunciation that English words generally have one syllable with more stress, and French words are most always evenly stressed.<BR><BR>You are correct that one of the reasons for an accent is that we tend to transfer our pronunciation norms to another language, but a stronger explanation for the differences in sound come from the training any native speaker has received from birth: every spoken sound is correctly made by positioning the lips and tongue to block air in the formation of the sound. If certain sounds are not native, such as the nasal consonants, or the gutteral r, they typically can't be mimicked precisely, since the lips, tongue, and throat are not shaping the air in the same way.<BR><BR>Most linguists believe that anyone who learns to speak a non-native tongue after about the age of five will always have some degree of "foreign accent". Speakers may become proficient, and may sound close to a native, but subtle differences can be discerned by a trained ear.

English tends to accent the "antipenultimate" syllable in words with more than a couple of syllables; and it tends to have secondary accents that set up either iambic (^! ^!) or dactylic (!^^ !^^) rhythms. The word "antipenulatimate" is a good example: "AN-tih-pen-_UL_-tih-mut." <BR><BR>There will be a quiz on Monday on this.

Sorry about the misspelling of the second "antipenultimate," which means, btw, the syllable before the next to last syllable.

An easy-to-remember phrase for the exceptions to ill = y sound: Lille est une des mille villes tranquilles. (all pronounced "eel."

It's "antepenultimate," not "antipenultimate."

My posting was off base, but it's an interesting phenomenon that once you learn something a certain way, you continue to hear it that way.<BR><BR>I feel certain that what I have heard from native French speakers DOES have a "wee" component to "ouill" - - but I think that my ear heard the "wee" portion of what is nearly a two syllable sound.<BR><BR>Thus, mouill&eacute; to me sounds like moo-wee-yay or moo(ie)yay; likewise, ratatouille like rah-ta-too(ie)-yuh, which rhymes with grenouille and andouille. Of course, andouilee has become so N'Awlins-ized in America that it might as well be spelled ann-doo-ie.<BR><BR>So, I hear "boo-ie" in bouillabaisse - - and personally I can't say a word like "boo-ie" (or "Dewey") withOUT a "w" sound in there. If "high French" (Acad&eacute;mie Fran&ccedil;aise) pronunciation is predominantly (or entirely) "oo" and little (or no) "wee" - - then I will not argue with Sue.<BR><BR>As I go back and read my first post, I think I was focused as much on correcting the SPELLING of "bouilabaisse" as anything - - with the notion that you can't sound it correctly without the correct spelling.<BR><BR>But I have learned something from Sue that I probably learned wrong - - and I have continued to hear over time, more like I first learned it - - than what people actually correctly say.<BR>

Nice of you to admit you were wrong, Rex. But it wouldn't have been so bad had you not started with your "NEVER!" as if you were the total expert on it. But then you consider yourself the expert on everything don't you -- answering as an authority even when you haven't a clue?

Only a guess can be made as to whether the two postings by "xxx" are from the same person. Hard to know what is the motivation for phrases like "dead wrong 100 percent of the time" or "when you haven't a clue". Neither of these are true, and the facts speak for themselves, regarding the answers I give here.<BR><BR>I do believe that its true: I actually HAVE transformed in certain ways in two and a half years here. I wonder when you, xxx, will transform to using an actual name.<BR><BR>:)<BR>

xxx, are you the same xxx that "thanked " me above just to have an excuse to bash Rex? If so, a little redundant, don’t you think? I was able to correct Rex’s small error in French pronunciation because that is my profession; I’ve taught French for 30 years. In my professional opinion, Rex does extremely well with French and, I am sure, knows a great deal more than his anonymous critics. How many languages do you speak as well, xxx? Judging from what I’ve seen in the year or so that I have been visiting this site, the vast majority of Rex’s posts are accurate and helpful. Can anyone say the same for yours? So he was a bit off base on this one. So what? So was Elaine, but I don’t see you jumping all over her. I just wish I knew as much about Rex’s profession as he knows about mine, but "I don' know nothin' 'bout birthin' no babies." <BR><BR> (Yes, I do know the difference between an OB and a neonatologist; I just couldn’t resist the line!)<BR>

Hi Huh-Huh!<BR><BR>I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'it' is characteristic of all Romance languages. All the Romance languages I know as a rule have their main stress on the penultimate syllable. Because this final syllable has often been elided in French there is a light residual stress on the final syllable.<BR><BR>With regard to 'perversely': just kidding. <BR><BR>Harzer

Hi Student!<BR><BR>How about three years of University French and one year's residence in France? I am a native English speaker with a post-graduate qualification in linguistics.<BR><BR>Remember, I said 'most' English words etc. Let's put your theory that I am wrong to the test. Here's a list of words of more than one syllable taken from a recent posting on this thread:<BR><BR>study, English, matter, syllable, necessarily, dictionary, pronunciation,<BR>generally, reason, accent (noun), transfer (verb), stronger, explanation, difference, training, native, speaker, received, spoken, guttural.<BR><BR>Of these 20 words 15 have the stress on the first syllable, one ('transfer') can have it on the first or second, one ('necessarily')can have it on the first or third, three have it on a later syllable. Sixteen out of twenty looks to me like 'most'.<BR><BR>Harzer

Betty--good post! Let's hear it for civility (and teaching old dogs new tricks). Good grief, I have learned so much from this forum, and I too, Rex, have had to relearn things that I was absolutely sure of. (That's why I consult my dictionary just to verify what I think is right!)