Pls help plan 9 days in Germany, flying in/out of Frankfurt
 

Have a last-minute opportunity to visit Germany and have done zero planning. Flying in and out of Frankfurt. Husband and myself, no kids; we are experienced travelers but I have never been to Germany (husband has been half dozen times but only for work, has done no sightseeing). We like the same things everyone likes: food, culture, nature, museums, monuments, spas, scenic hikes, markets...Please help suggest an itinerary as though this is our first and last trip to Germany. Would also appreciate hotel recommendations; we like luxury hotels, high tech modern hotels as much as charming rustic b&bs. Budget $400USD per night. THANK YOU!

Forgot to mention this trip is happening in 10 days! So end of July season. Thanks!

Could you narrow it down to areas that interest you? At this point I suppose your decision will be based upon where you can find lodging. You could explore the Rhein and Mosel but you'll need to find places to stay asap. You don't mention if you'll have a car. That also makes a difference.

We can rent a car if that works better. Is driving a pain or fun for visitors? Did some research last night (just found out yesterday about this trip), tentatively planning this:
Fly into Frankfurt (return flight in/out of FRA already booked)
Heidelberg: 2 nights (longer to nurse jetlag, relax and slower pace on first couple days), Hotel der Europaische Hof
Freiburg: 2 nights, Hotel Colombi
Fussen/Neuschwanstein: 2 nights
Munich: 2 nights
Frankfurt: 1 night
Depart

Please comment, thanks!

You certainly do not need a car for those places and mainly cities look at trains which yes go to all those places. Even into Black Forest from Freiburg and to Neuschwanstein- anyway for lots about German trains check www.bahn.de/en - German Railways web site; www.seat61.com; BETS-European Rail Experts and www.ricksteves.com.

That gives you 1 full day in each location. Personally, that's not my preferred way to travel but if that time frame fits what you plan to see then you're good to go. Book your Neuschwanstein tickets in advance online. Enjoy your trip!

Have you considered doing the Rhine gorge - I'd consider in lieu of Freiburg - could end up there and easily take train to Frankfurt Airport instead of staying in Frankfurt itself - you can take K-D (k-d.com) boats thru the finest part of the Rhine between Rudesheim/Bingen and Koblenz.

That's pretty much the usual rallye style and it is so incredibly hard to make Americans understand that this is a pointless approach for Europe. You are just ticking off cliches and don't have enough time for anything. Also please don't drive after a transatlantic flight. For your above itinerary it would be pointless anyway except maybe for the Füssen part.

With your proposed itinerary it seems you have 8 full days plus the remains of your travel days, correct? Think in regions and base towns for these regions and don't choose more than two with four days for each. Especially good base towns are Frankfurt and Nuremberg, but Erfurt, Stuttgart and Munich are fine, too. Freiburg would be doable if you want to see the Alsace with Colmar and Strasbourg.

<<so incredibly hard to make Americans understand that this is a pointless approach for Europe>>

Some Americans. Please don't paint us all with the same brush.

I appreciate ALL comments above and points well taken. Which towns should I skip? We live in a big city with lots of museums (understanding every museum and every city is unique), should we skip Munich this time? I agree we don't want to just check off tourist highlights, I just want to enjoy and appreciate Germany. I'm not looking for Facebook/Instagram fillers. Some additional context: it's a first extended trip in a LONG time without the kids and we don't want it to be too hectic, want to have time to enjoy a long meal and not feel like it's hard work or stressful. Thanks!

That far-flung itinerary isn't such a smart plan. Too much road time, too little boots-on-the-ground time.

I would split the time between the Mosel / Middle Rhine (or "The Romantic Rhine" - the "Rhine Gorge" is part of that) region for one base, and then go with Lubitsch's suggestion of Nuremberg as a base town for that region (Franconia.) You'll have a great castle experience on the Rhine (Marksburg, Rheinfels, and Burg Eltz over near the Mosel River actually.) Fly into and out of FRA.

Rhine towns of interest: Most of the small old-world towns lie between Koblenz (a city of some size) and Bingen (or Rüdesheim on the opposite bank.)
Mosel towns of interest: https://www.mosel-reisefuehrer.de/17...ights-englisch
Franconia towns of interest: Nuremberg, Bamberg, Würzburg, Iphofen, Bad Windsheim (Freilandmuseum) (and more.)

Trains will work fine if you wish for both regions. But a top-end stay like Auf Schönburg Castle in Oberwesel (high on a clifftop) or other less accessible lodging will require taxi service.

Melnq8: "Some Americans. Please don't paint us all with the same brush."

Welcome to Lubitsch, Melnq8.

What Melnq8 said, adding the idea that people are free to experience for themselves what does and does not work so well for their own situations.

OP: I think Fussgaenger hit the nail on the head. Geographically, the Rhine/Mosel or Nürnberg makes the most sense. However, if you've always dreamed of traveling to Bavaria and seeing all the castles you'll have to make some decisions to possibly skip Heidelberg and Freiburg.

Whatever you decide, I know you'll have a great time. You can pretty much throw a dart blindfolded at the map of Germany and find something special to do/see/experience in or about that area.

I think Berlin is a must for anybody visiting Germany, due to its history. However, it is in the other direction of all the places you were looking....

Nine days not much - Berlin is great but way up northeast from Frankfurt-Munich area which has so much to offer - don't try to do too much.

I'd suggest Rhine/Mosel and Bavaria would make a really nice combo - natural beauty and castles and Munich itself worth

That's not what I did, please read carefully. I just said that American posters usually are not willing to adjust their American travel style which might be suited for the USA to the different situation in Europe. That is an experience I've made and read many times again and again on different travel forums hence my frustration. Seems however that OP doesn't want to make the same mistake.

That's slightly exaggerating it. There are some spots which would be rather dull ... and obviously some base towns are better than others.

Berlin is arguably the least historic city in Germany if it's about how far back it reaches and what you can experience of earlier centuries. And it totally is not a must. Not on your first, not on your fifth visit. Germany is not a country where the capital is the ultimate center of interest.

We totally can not and should take this decision from you, but relax: you won't make a bad choice whatever you pick. If you are totally averse to larger cities then Rhine/Mosel might do it for you. Russ will be happy to fill in from here though you should be aware that Cochem is just a transport hub and not a particlarily noteworthy town whatever he says and that Rüdesheim has its major sights but most tourists stupidly stampede the Drosselgasse which is a totally worthless tourist trap.
Personally I prefer a larger place which is well connected to the train network and gives multiple options. Nuremberg is arguably unbeatable in this regard because you can visit Bamberg, Bayreuth, Rothenburg, Würzburg, Ansbach, Coburg and Regensburg from there. That would fill your whole vacation.
Most people who come to Germany land in Frankfurt and for no compellingly good reason immediately leave instead of using it as a transport hub. With Mainz, Wiesbaden, Limburg, Wetzlar, Marburg, Fulda, Aschaffenburg, Darmstadt plus lots of smaller places like Gelnhausen and Büdingen it offers what tourists are usually seeking.

As for your ideas:
Heidelberg works just fine though like most Americans you are overrating the town (not the castle) a bit. It offers however multiple of nice day trip options. The Neckar river has its castles and pretty towns like the Rhine has, Speyer and Worms with their cathedrals are nearby as are Mannheim and Bruchsal with their palaces. Lots of other small places nearby. So it will do nicely for 4 nights.
Freiburg beyond itself is a good place for visiting the Alsace. Also there's Basel southwards. Not necessarily that great for the Black Forest though there are some options. I am rather sceptical towards the southern part of the Black Forest though others might find the nature pretty and generally don't think that this most south-western corner of the country is the most thrilling part.
Füssen is not just Neuschwanstein and to the east Ettal, Linderhof palace and the Wieskirche are worth another trip. That's the one area where a car would be nice to have
Munich for two days is just somehow tacked on. Either go there, see it which takes a few days and visit places like Ingolstadt, Landshut, Augsburg, Regensburg or Landsberg nearby which would take up your whole vacation or drop it. But as it is with two nights this is clearly the worst idea in your plan.

Hi thank you to everyone who offered great advice. I'm still mostly clueless but have time to do more research today. Will read up on the areas, planning to focus on 2 regions: 4 days Rhine and 4 days Bavaria. Planning to skip all the big cities: no Berlin, Frankfurt or Munich this time. Crazy or sensible?

Any great hotels you would recommend? We are traveling childless for the first time and want to treat ourselves to some nice hotels, maybe what they call "relaxed luxury". Will be celebrating a wedding anniversary.

Thank you again! Flatfeet

Of course no need to visit big cities - rural areas area a whole different trip and in many ways much more relaxing - though perhaps boring to some, like me who like to base in a bit city like Munich and take day trips into more rural areas.

PS, we don't particularly love castles. Husband and I don't love trips where you take lots of pictures of temples and castles and cathedrals, but we do love stunning natural scenery. Some of our favorite trips include safaris, hiking the great wall of china (far from the touristy sections and into the real strenuous parts), walking around local markets and sampling unfamiliar snacks. Does it change anything with where we should go in the Germany?

No area you list above are great for that.

Meant to say: No, areas you list above are great for that what you like.

Hi again.

Had a chance to get some input from German colleagues, who recommended we narrowed down to the following towns. Would like to do a combine drive/train route, please help select A, B or C

Itinerary A: 2 nights Heidelberg, 2 nights Munich, 1 night Fussen, 2 nights Colmar, 2 nights Baden Baden

B: 2 nights Heidelberg, 3 nights Munich (depart early morning to see Neuschwanstein castle on the way to Konstance), 2 nights Konstance, 2 nights Baden Baden

C: 2 nights Heidelberg, 1 night Fussen, 2 nights Konstance, 2 nights Colmar, 2 nights Baden Baden

Any itinerary need to start with 2 nights in Heidelberg (to see colleagues there) and end with flight out of Frankfurt. Please comment, our ideal trip will be a combination of relaxation, hiking, stunning nature, good food, nice hotels. Thank you.

"...our ideal trip will be a combination of relaxation, hiking, stunning nature..."

I don't see very much of this in any of your itinerary options.

I thought except Munich all other towns listed are beautiful with great hiking, no?

Why are you so incredibly hard wired into hotelhopping every two nights?

Not hardwired to hotel hop. Those towns were recommended to us; when I look for them on a map, they make a nice circular driving tour back to FRA to catch our flight out. Will happily base ourselves in just 2 towns and do day trips but don't know where to base. I also don't like the idea of driving 2 hours day trip to see a town, and drive back 2 hour that night just to go back to the base hotel. Would you recommend this instead?

2 nights Heidelberg
4 nights Cochem
3 nights Baden-Baden

You have to leave Munich, Heidelberg, Konstanz and Colmar and Baden-Baden to get out into "stunning nature" for a decent hike. Füssen isn't bad for that but you have only one night there - or 0 nights at all on a stopover in between two long drives. It's not just about hiking. Relaxation? Where does that enter the picture on such a rigorous itinerary?

The point (whichI thought you "got" before but now have abandoned with this new plan which is basically your original plan) is that you are keeping an unrealistic travel schedule - packing, unpacking, checking in, checking out, traveling traveling traveling over far too many ground miles.

"food, culture, nature, museums, monuments, spas, scenic hikes, markets..."

It's not a problem that you want it all, but with just a little over one week, across way too much territory, and with too many stops, your odds of success fall precipitously.

I see we have cross-posted.
I've already suggested the Rhine/Mosel and Franconia (northern Bavaria) as bases.

You aren't going to get much out of Baden-Baden as a base town IMHO. B-B is a day trip from Heidelberg if you really want to see it. But there are some other fine outings you could take from Heidelberg if you just stayed in/near Heidleberg 2-3 additional days.

Bergstrasse, Heppenheim, wine towns: The Bergstrasse
Bad Wimpfen: https://www.orte-bw.de/grafik/upload..._2010_1040.JPG
Michelstadt: Attachment 1191

Neckar River Valley...

Hirschhorn - Attachment 1192

Burg Guttenberg - https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...rttemberg.html

Other options: Cities & villages in the Neckar valley.

Then add a few days in the Rhine/Mosel region. Boppard is a good base town for both river valleys in most cases.

Fussgaenger, really appreciate your comments. I thought I "got it" too but then couldn't find places to base and then kept seeing names of those towns pop up. Many travel sites have 7-9 days itineraries and I also saw "romantic rhine" road trip suggestions that inspired that itineraries above that no one on Fodor here seems to like. I see suggestions to base in Mosel/Rhine and Black Forest, but don't know actual town I should book a hotel in.

If not Baden-Baden, then where should I look for hotels to travel through the black forest? All the travel sites mentioned Baden Baden when I type in black forest.

Should I do 3 nights Cochem, 2 nights Fussen, and 4 nights Heidelberg? Every travel site makes it essential that someone traveling to southern Germany for the first time should stay in Munich and Fussen, but on this board they are not recommended, so I'm confused.

Thank you!

Here is Rick Steve's days 1-12 best of Germany (southern portion). I'm trying to hit some of the same places on my itinerary, but instead of Bacharach, I had more nights in Heidelberg because we have friends there we want to see. also RS's route doesn't work as well for me because we have to fly in and out of FRA in 10 days/9 nights, so I thought a solution was to skip Rhine Valley, add Munich and make it more of a circular route back to FRA.

Day 1: Fly into Frankfurt, pick up car, drive to Rhine Valley (sleep in Bacharach)

Day 2: Rhine Valley (sleep in Bacharach)

Day 3: To Mosel Valley (sleep in Beilstein or Trier)

Day 4: Mosel Valley and/or Trier (sleep in Beilstein or Trier)

Day 5: To Baden-Baden (sleep in Baden-Baden)

Day 6: Relax and soak in Baden-Baden (sleep in Baden-Baden)

Day 7: Drive through the Black Forest (sleep in Freiburg or Staufen)

Day 8: To Bavaria and Tirol (sleep in Füssen or Reutte)

Day 9: Bavaria/Tirol and castles (sleep in Füssen or Reutte)

Day 10: More Bavaria/Tirol, then to Munich (sleep in Munich)

Day 11: Munich (sleep in Munich)

Day 12: More Munich, or side-trip to Salzburg (sleep in Munich)

I'd do a stop in Baden-Baden for a few hours en route to a better situated Black Forest base. Michelin green guides are almost as good a source for where to stay and go from bases as is Fussganger (seriously!). Steves' itinerary is about all one-night stops - relocating is such a pain - slow down and yes do your thinking of say 3 bases for 9 days.

I'm very familiar with Rick Steves' suggestions for Germany and Europe more generally. IMO Rick's most valuable contributions are...
a.) ...his success in encouraging novice travelers to see Europe; his PBS travel series makes travel look fun and doable, and he comes off as completely knowledgeable and trustworthy.
b.) ...his packing advice. VERY smart.
He seems like a really nice guy; viewers and readers - and grandmothers everywhere - want to just eat him up, and they follow his instructions in trance-like obedience.

But the bus tour you cited and Rick's priorities for travelers in Germany put travelers on a race around the country and make sure their time is spent in very touristy spots and with hordes of international tourists. His tips also play on all the stereotypes of Germany and Germans that we've all acquired through our schooling and media back home.

You CAN do the same tour on your own, but then why not just take a bus tour? The better question is why trade all that time you could spend exploring places on two feet for many long hours on a train or in a car? Traveling around is enjoyable - up to a point - but it's largely unnecessary in Germany. You can toss darts at a map of Germany and nearly every place you hit will be worthwhile and require more time than you might have planned. And wherever you go, the more time you aren't stuck in a moving vehicle, the more you will experience.

You've read Rick Steves. Now do as Palenqe suggests and read some different travel resources. Untours is an interesting company that sets people up with 1 or two weeks in the Rhine Valley. Rick can't see fit to put you there for even 2 full days, it seems.

https://www.untours.com/rhine

There's a reasonably well-done 5-day itinerary for the Rhine Valley here:
https://www.untours.com/rhine

And these don't even include the Mosel destinations.

So the idea of staying 3-4 nights in a place surrounded by things to see and do (like the Rhine) is hardly revolutionary. Cochem and surroundings would be OK for 3 nights (though I think Boppard would be better for the area.) Heidelberg and surroundings won't bore you with 4 nights there. It's a very long way to Füssen - If you choose that, I wouldn't spend fewer than 2 nights there. But the Rothenburg area is much closer and could also eat up your time - many lovely places to visit in that area as well and much closer to FRA. Your new 3-base plan might be doable but you have some long train rides to deal with.

What's must-see in Germany? Some say Berlin, Munich, Rothenburg, or all of those. I say none of those - and nothing else either. I've spent 4 decades visiting Germany, but unlike Rick, I don't feel comfortable telling you what's important to see. It's a personal choice. You really can do your own trip based on your own needs and interests. There's no exit test.

Let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - tours are great for many folks who would never ever go on their own - the vast number of Americans traveling to Europe I'd say. And, they satiate most folks' desires to see as 'see' as many as different places as possible in a short time and have everything done for them. Great for most but I would not look at any tour itinerary as a model for independent travelers -especially the one you give above.

Look, let's get one thing straight. Rick Steves is c***. He doesn't know anything about the places he describes. Germany has seven old towns which are designated UNESCO world heritage, none of them features in his book. Mrs Jo who does guided tours of Frankfurt could tell you a story how she sent corrections to them about the gravest mistakes how long they needed to do anything and how his walk is still a terrible idea. He basically grabs the most cliche sugary destinations and bundles them up in terrible rushed itineraries. It's deeply regrettable that somebody like him has such an influence on the US market.

So if we shall continue here forget this name and his suggestions.

Fussganger has already pointed out in post 27 where you can go from Heidelberg. The Neckar is pretty, do a boat trip, do the climbs to the castles in Neckarsteinach and Hirschhorn for views. Take another trip to Bad Wimpfen. Go up north to Bensheim Auerbach and hike up to the impressive castle ruin and then relax in the Fürstenlager park nearby. These are all perfectly picturesque places. If you would want some culture for a change and maybe a cooler place (we have currently a brutal heatwave mounting) then visit Speyer or Worms and cool down in their cathedrals, the first one is an UNESCO world heritage site. Or if you'd like to see some palaces, visit those in Bruchsal and Rastatt. Or go to Maulbronn monastery which is another UNESCO world heritage site.

Basically we are suggesting you to slow down. You are not gaining anything by changing places every two nights, you're just stressing yourself out and wasting time in transit. Do four nights in Heidelberg and four nights elsewhere and you're fine.

Here's the link I failed to provide above for 5 days on the Rhine:
https://www.holidaystoeurope.com.au/...e-rhine-valley

Thanks to you all. So skip the Neuschwanstein castle? I don't love castles and tour buses but such pressure to conform...

New new options:
A: 5 nights in Boppard, 4 nights in Heidelberg
B: 5 nights Oberstdrof or Garmish (interested in hiking and scouting out a ski town for if we return in the winter), day trip to somewhere in Austria, Konstance which a colleague recommended, and see the big castles, 4 nights in Heidelberg
C: 5 nights Freiburg (do black forest, day trip to Konstance, Colmar and Strasburg which colleagues suggested), and 4 nights Heidelberg

So I basically am now down to choosing between river/boats (A), castles/mountains (B), and lake/black forest (C), am I right or did I misunderstand these regions? I like all three, so it might come down to hotels. Which town base can offer the nicest "relaxed luxury" hotel for under $300 euro a night?

Thank you!!

Which town base can offer the nicest "relaxed luxury" hotel for under $300 euro a night? >

All or none!