|
Please help - first European trip
Hello fellow Fodorites, thanks for responding. My buddy and I are planning our first European trip for either June or July. We want to see as much as we can in 14 days. We originally thought of taking a guided tour. However, after reading so many fascinating posts here, I am leaning more toward independent travel.
The places at the top of our list include: London, Paris, Rome, and Venice. Other destinations of interest: Ireland, Amsterdam, Prague, and Santorini. In addition, we'd like to see Stonehenge and some cool castles. We are both single and in our mid- 30's. We don't want to rent a car, but instead use the rail. We would like to experience as much diversity as possible and view breathtaking sites. 1)How much of Europe is practical to see in 14 days? 2)We will be departing from Phoenix. What would be a good arrival city? Would an open-jaw ticket be ideal for our journey? 3)Would the 15 day Eurail pass be the way to go with our trip? 4)Is June or July a better time to travel? 5)English is the only language we speak. Will this be a major problem? 6)How far in advance should we book our flights/hotel? 7)Should we just book our first/last night hotels and just wing it the rest of the way? 8)Is it better to choose a hotel in the city or one on the outskirts? 9)What cities/sites would you recommend to someone who has never been to Europe? Thank you so much for your experienced advice! Sean |
Hi Sean!
You'll have a great time! Here's my opinions on your questions....I'm sure you'll get many! 1)How much of Europe is practical to see in 14 days? 2 to 3 cities and some countryside in between. Think about if you want to spend most of your time on the train, finding accomodations and checking in and out. I found that it's way better to spend longer amounts of time in one place and get familiar with the neighborhoods etc rather than spending a lot of time figuring out where the grocery, atm etc is in each city. 2)We will be departing from Phoenix. What would be a good arrival city? Would an open-jaw ticket be ideal for our journey? Open Jaw is great...that way you don't back track and you save both money and time. 3)Would the 15 day Eurail pass be the way to go with our trip? After you come up with your itinerary, add up the single ticket fees and see how it compares to the pass. 4)Is June or July a better time to travel? In my experience, June is way better. Most European schools are still in session in June and things aren't nearly as crowded as July. 5)English is the only language we speak. Will this be a major problem? You'll have no problem in most places...just learn the "niceties"...good morning, good evening, please, thank you etc. 6)How far in advance should we book our flights/hotel? flights you should be looking now...hotels....hard to say...I'm sure others will have good info on that. 7)Should we just book our first/last night hotels and just wing it the rest of the way? I've done that before and that works out pretty well...but then I usually have a car. I know many do that with a train also though. 8)Is it better to choose a hotel in the city or one on the outskirts? My opinion...in the city...it's great to experience the neighborhoods. I also enjoy having a "home" to go to during the day to recoup. 9)What cities/sites would you recommend to someone who has never been to Europe? My opinion...Paris, Amsterdam, london. that would do it! good luck! |
Margyb's advice is good. Paris, Amsterdam, London are close enough together to fit into a 14-day itinerary, and are probably good first choices in that 1 of them is English-speaking anyway. (Most people in Amsterdam are too, and if you learn the basic greetings and 'please' and 'thank you' you'll find Parisians are also helpful).
Having said that, if you want some small towns or villages or rural countryside thrown in as well, even these 3 cities may be a lot to fit into 14 days. However I guess you're travelling by train rather than car, which may limit your out-of-town excursions to what is easy for public transport or local tours. Day-trips from London include Bath, Oxford, Cambridge, Canterbury; from Paris are Chartres, Giverny, a Loire chateau. It all depends on what your interests are. I personally prefer to wing it, but then I use a car and winging it gives me flexibility for spur-of-the-moment decisions. With only 14 days based around 3 cities, you may want to structure your time more accurately and book ahead. |
I didn't intend to be up at this hour, but since I am - - I will dissent from what may turn out to be the "majority opinion" and say that you can see a larger fraction of your desired "targets" than others are proposing. In general, I believe that "we" (the "regulars" of this forum) should tell you HOW you CAN do what you think you want to do, and not re-write your trip according to how WE think we would do it.
I recommend that you seek an open jaw air fare, starting in London, and returning from Venice. Allow 4 days in London. If it is more big city than you want, consider leaving a day early to proceed to Paris, or take a day and go to Windsor for the day. Travel by train to Paris late on day 4 (you leave the US on day 0; you arrive in London on day 1) or early on day 5. Travel by train to Amsterdam early on day 8. Fly, on VirginExpress.com from Amsterdam to Rome for 73-103 euro, leaving at 14:55 and arriving at 17:20 on day 9 or 10. The lowest fares may not be available on a Sunday. Travel by train from Rome to Venice on day 12, ideally spanning the lunch or dinner hour. You have to eat sometime that day, and it makes sense to accomplish that during the 4.5 hr train ride. The meal is hardly bargain-priced, but its white-tablecloth service and decent food, in the dining car, makes it a pleasant experience. Fly home from Venice on day 14. You certainly do NOT want ANY "rail pass" - - you're only traveling by train three times. This is less of "small town and rural Europe" than I would ordinarily recommend on a 14 day trip. Make your <i>next</i> trip to Europe to one single country and split your time 50-50 between cities and the countryside. You should reserve every hotel night 4-12 weeks in advance, in the most central city location you can afford. My "day this or day that" recommendations were for you to choose based on what you are reading NOW about each city. You might enjoy June more, at lower prices than July. Lock in your air fare in the next 30-60 days - - if you are sure you are taking this trip for certain, immediately if you can find a fare of less than $800. Consider USAirways (and purchase before Jan 30) to get double FF miles - - you'll accumulate almost 25,000 FF miles on this trip alone (more if you sign up as a new member or get a USAir credit card); virtually like getting a free trip anywhere in the continental US as a bonus to this trip. The major problem you will encounter if you have not learned some of at least Italian (or French - - if you decide to alter the itinerary and spend more time in France and less in Italy) is that you will <i><b>enjoy</b></i> the trip a lot less. The investment of 30-45 minutes a day, 4-5 times a week could result in your acquiring a 500 word vocabulary in Italian in the next 4 months. Today would be a good day to start. Come back to this forum often and post at least one question each time on some specific destination or aspect of your trip - - 5-10 times a week for the next week will get your motor way revved up with thigns you should read about, and ways to prepare for this to be a great trip. Realize that something (some one thing?) will go way different than you have planned it. Tell us ways that you put such a circumstance to best advantage on any other trip you have taken in the past - - we'll think of ways you can prepare yourself for it to be an "unexpectedly good" wrinkle on this, your first trip to Europe. Go to the library tonight and bring home as many books as you can carry. Read all of them, cover to cover, like a novel. Best wishes, Rex |
I think Rex has given you great advice. The only minor adjustment I might make is to offer than in addition to or instead of Windsor as a day trip from London (where you would see a castle) you might consider a daytrip to see Stonehenge and Salisbury. London Walks is a well reguarded company that does walking tours IN London but also does what they call Explorer Days. Look at their website http://walks.com/ as it might offer many other tours that interest you. Other cos. that also do day tours that include Stonehenge are Astral Travel and Evan and Evans. You can also go to Stonehenge on your own, but it reaquires a combination of train and bus. There is a way to get what is called a "private access" tour which involves getting close up to the stones which are normally roped off. If you do a text search here of private access tour AND stonehenge, you should bring up some previous threads with info.
Happy planning! |
I, too, think the advice from Rex is great but would make one change. I would travel to London-4 days, Paris-4 days, Rome-3 days and Venice-3 days. These 4 cities are all wonderful and have so much to offer that you will only skim the surface. Fly into London, fly from Paris to Rome and fly home from Venice. Use the trains for the rest of the legs. You may have time for day trips from London or Paris to see a bit of the countryside but, IMO, both are great cities and deserve as much time as you can make. Enjoy!
|
Hi sean,
Unless you expect to never get back to Europe again, I suggest London (5), Paris (6), Amsterdam (3) London (5), Paris (6), Venice (3) Paris (5), Florence (5), Venice (4) Paris (7), London (7) ((I)) |
I'd stick a couple of days in Germany in there instead of so much Italy.
Having a rail pass gives you great flexibility in going anywhere that intrigues you at the drop of a hat and cost be damned. Check out the bonuses on eurailpass.com, too. They include water travel, Eurostar discounts, and urban transport (RER, S-Bahn) in many cities. I favor hotels a little out from the city center. They invariably give you more for the money, and proximity to sights isn't an issue because you'll use a lot of subways and buses no matter where you stay. |
Sean-
Paris and Venice go good together (i like the overnight train between the two) plus London & Amsterdam OR Rome would be a great two week trip. Once you decide I would reserve hotels ahead and IN central locations, because I see both of these as time savers. There's no joy in taking public transit each time you want to go somewhere from your outlying hotel, when you could be situated walking distance instead. Seeking a hotel after you arrive a town is a time waster IMO as well. Fine for a 3 month trip maybe, but to maximize your time I'd just pin it down ahead with recommendations from guidebooks and/or this BB. Makes for a smoother trip. Train or air travel, not car rental. Yes fly open jaws. I have never had a significant problem speaking only English. Learn a few phrases & pleasantries and be real real nice to everyone, works for me. |
<<Having a rail pass gives you great flexibility in going anywhere that intrigues you at the drop of a hat and cost be damned.>>
So does a wad of cash. And at the end of the trip, with the wad of cash, you'll have $100 or more left over. |
I don't know how you can say "will" with such finality. Since the result depends entirely on your travel habits, "may" is the correct choice of words. (And just so we're comparing oranges to oranges, you have to buy First Class ptp tickets everywhere you go and add in the cost of the ancillary transport used.)
<i>p.s.</i> I <u>did</u> say "cost be damned." |
Whether you do or don't use rail passes, I have used them in the past. I have used them for side/day trips as well as for the major travel between cities, but only if the passes are more economical. Even if the passes were slightly more expensive, I went with them because it can be convenient to just hop on a train at the last minute & know you are covered with the pass rather then waiting in line to purchase a point to point ticket. Be aware that in the past you needed a Britrail pass for trains in Britain & that Eurail passes were not valid inside of Britain.
|
My "finality" stems from analyzing this particular person's interests - - five different cities (a whirlwind in most people's minds), and little reason, if any to deviate to day trips, or impulsively decide to go somewhere else. Three train rides, that's all. Despite a LOT of ground being covered. A bad fit for aq "rail pass". Like the vast majority of first-time Europe visitors with peripatetic destination interests.
There's simply nothing wrong with making a plan and sticking with it. Changing on the fly has its merits, but for a first-timer, there can be as much serendipitous discovering "what you didn't know you didn't know" withIN a city as choosing some assortment of (an) unplanned destination(s). Waving the notion in front of theitr faces - - that sean007 and buddy <i>ought</i> to buy a rail pass because "that's the <i>real</i> way" to be spontaneous and see the "true" Europe - - is no more prudent advice than suggesting that they add a sixth, or seventh, or eighth destination. |
The operative words in the OP are "diversity" and "breathtaking" - and you can't get that by sticking to downtown.
|
<<The operative words in the OP are "diversity" and "breathtaking" - and you can't get that by sticking to downtown.>>
With complete respect and full sincerity, I quite disagree. Right now (as I have proposed it), I would liken this trip to 14 days in Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington. Whirlwind to be sure. But no shortage of "diversity", nor of "breathtaking" - - and as much as I uphold the broadest appropriate definition of a given culture - - no reason that such an itinerary should be called deficient in "seeing" the "<i><b>real</b></i> America". |
Hey Sean,
You'll have a blast! My husband and I are both in our mid-twenties and very high-energy. We visited 4 places (Rome, Florence, Venice, Cinque Terre) in 12 days on our honeymoon and had a wonderful time. They were all in Italy though, so our travel time wasn't too awful. We did A LOT of pounding the streets to see the sights from dawn to dusk in 3 of our destinations and then we relaxed on the beach most of the time when we got to the Cinque Terre. Our itinerary worked for us because we don't tire easily, even walking for 14+ hours a day. That said, we are planning a much slower paced trip back to Italy this May in which we'll visit Rome (again), Sorrento & Positano, and the Cinque Terre (again) over 12 days. We found that while we could do the "mad rush" style of sightseeing, it feels more like a vacation if we had some R&R in there. All this to say - if you really want to see 4 or 5 cities in 14 days, it can be done. You can even see them in a lot of detail if you are willing to book museum reservations and literally "go-go-go" ALL day long every day. But you'll be worn out when you get back!! :-) |
I like some of Ira's itineraries. I would probably recommend London, Paris and Venice with London, Paris and Amsterdam as second choice. If I had just a few extra days I would probably go with london, Paris, Venice and Rome. Early June would be the best time for your trip within your parameters. Yes to open jaw. No to Eurail. Wandering around with a rail pass works great if you have a month or two but not for two weeks. I would start looking for airfares in february and march for a june trip. I would also settle on a hotel in each of your destinations by late march as some of the better or better value hotels may get booked. Lastly I disagree completely with the advice to find hotels in the outskirts of town. My advice would be exactly the opposite. Pick a hotel in a area close to where you would like to spend time wandering around. It is not worth getting a better value hotel in the outskirts of town and waste time commuting. The night life, restaurants are in the centre of town not in the outskirts. It is also nice to come back to your hotel sometime during the day to refresh or drop off some thing you have purchased. Stay central!
|
I want to resort to an analogy to clarify this "where to stay" issue:
Let's say the United States maps onto the city you are going to visit. If the places you are going to visit are on the far east end of town, the far south of town, and the far northwest of town, it doesn't matter whether your hotel is in St. Louis or Albuquerque. Because the total distance you will travel is exactly the same. And if you're in the far east end of town, it's a tossup whether your hotel (where you will go to get refreshed and rest) is in St. Louis or Albuquerque, because you aren't going to spend every day in Kansas City. The fact is that most European cities are remarkably compact, and you can get from anywhere in the "country" to Albuquerque in 10 minutes. So it's hardly a question of "wasting time commuting." |
I'll disagree once again. The things you can see on foot are more abundant if you stay as centrally as possible - - and moving around, <i><b>on foot</b></i> the five cities in question is vital to enjoying them. But even - - in Paris and London, for example, where you likely WILL use public transportation - - it has confluent routes which make your "commuting" more pleasant and less intimidating if you are moving in and out of the center, rather than always returning to/originating from La Defense or Hammersmith, for example.
|
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. Your advice is invaluable! I will begin forming an itinerary over the next several days. I'm sure I'll be throwing out many more questions. I'll keep you posted on developments.
Sean |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:12 PM. |