PLANNING YOUR TRIP TO EUROPE ?
 

I may be leaving myself wide open on this one <BR>but I feel it needs to be said on this forum. <BR> <BR>Here is a recent article I composed to give <BR>guidance to the frequent questions from the <BR>many first time travelers to Europe. I hope <BR>it does not insult anyone, and help some. <BR> <BR>PLANNING YOUR TRIP TO EUROPE ? <BR> <BR> I get inquiries virtually every day requesting my help in developing a well conceived <BR>TRIP PLAN for independent travel in Europe. I am always willing to offer the benefit of my <BR>experience , but some requests can be a real challenge. Here is a recent example: <BR> <BR> “ Dear Bob, I have seen your frequent comments on the Fodors forum and would like your <BR>help in planning our family trip to Europe. We are four[ ages 9&13] and will be traveling in <BR>August to these places we have always dreamed about---the Cote d’ Azur, Lake Como, Venice, <BR>Florence, Rome and the Amalfi coast. Can you please tell us where to stay and what to see? <BR>Oh yes, we only will have ten days and we will be on a tight budget. Can you help us ? “ <BR> <BR> The challenge is to inject a dose of realism without completely dousing the dream. Not an <BR>easy task. But, after having planned more than fifty customized itineraries for others, I have <BR>learned that the most successful trips are invariably those that are conceived by considering <BR>the macro criteria first. You must start with the “BIGGIES” in your planning phase and then <BR>the rest will fall into place. Anything less will seriously compromise the eventual trip success. <BR> <BR> The above scenario is a textbook example of poor planning. It fails to consider these criteria: <BR> WHEN ? Pick your destinations based upon optimal seasonal considerations. Avoid <BR>most of southern Europe in the hot summer months. Visit Iberia or Italy in May or October <BR>and save the Alpine venues, northern Europe, and Ireland or Scotland for July and August. <BR> HOW MUCH ? Your budget will often dictate which destinations are feasible. Set a <BR>realistic budget and then plan accordingly. Forget the upscale resorts during high season. <BR> ENOUGH TIME ? Trying to do too much is the most common planning error. A ten day <BR>itinerary calls for a max of four destinations---a 14 day itinerary suggests six. And, try to plan <BR>your route for less than four hours of travel time to the next destination--- by car or train. <BR> RAILS OR RENTAL CAR ? Your mode of transport will determine trip timing and choice <BR>of destinations. Train travel can be efficient but is very limiting for off-the-mainline locations. <BR> EXPERIENCE LEVEL ? Trip stress is directly related to your travel experience in Europe. <BR>So, plan your initial trip to minimize the stress factors. DO NOT BITE OFF TOO MUCH ! <BR> <BR> You may not always be able to control these variables, but you do need to develop your <BR>trip strategy considering their eventual impact---it will make all the difference. The worst <BR>mistake is to start with the single criteria of “WHERE” and then try to force feed the rest. <BR>My best advise is to plan this trip with the assumption that you will be returning to Europe for <BR>subsequent trips. Start with a good map and perceive Europe as geographic regions. Then, <BR>plan perhaps as many as three desired itineraries in advance. You will very likely return ! <BR> <BR> BOB THE NAVIGATOR <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Excellent summary Bob, you may not get a lot of flak on this but no doubt I will from what I am going to say. You said it more politely than I and less directly. <BR> <BR>I get a lot of similar questions about travelling and while I am happy to help I don't want to completely arrange a trip based on my personal feelings and wishes for someone I don't even know. Opinions etc yes I can offer but if people want to arrange their own trips then could they have an idea of what they would like to see and do before they appeal for help. It is their trip and frankly while I like assisting people I am not a tour agent and do not have the time to act as one. <BR> <BR>Now those comments will no doubt prompt lots of further posts. Folks I am happy to help but can people try and think and do some search for themselves before they post. I think that Fodors should consider putting together all the gems of wisdom that appear on this board and that all first time visitors should be encouraged to use it. Obviously the thread are disappearing quickly and people are not getting the most out of the search function. <BR> <BR>Right let the storm begin <BR> <BR>Cathy

Like BOB, I too receive many daily requests for advice and counsel regarding European trip planning. It seems that at any given time from May to October up to a half dozen travelers and their companions are racketing about Europe with some suggestions of mine in hand. <BR> <BR>What BOB has outlined is immensely invaluable information and guidance for the European travel planner. I think his key advice lies in the comment : "Do not bite off too much!" Most Americans would never dream of taking a two week vacation with the intent of visiting New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Lexington horse country, the Grand Canyon and Disneyworld. A goodly number however, as evidenced by some of the queries to this forum and the type queries BOB and I receive, are prospective travelers hoping to visit London, Amsterdam, Paris, Rome, Florence, Venice, Munich , Salzburg and Vienna in a two week span. Europe isn't going anywhere. What you don't see and experience this year will be there for you next year, or when the kids are out of college, or the mortgage is paid off. Limit yourself to the amount you can see and do that will leave you with pleasurable lasting memories for a lifetime and whet your appetite for a return. <BR> <BR>I'd like to add two minor points and suggestions to what BOB has said. If traveling with children, get them actively engaged in the planning process if their ages permit. Doing so enriches their knowledge and experience of the world and themselves and helps create enthusiastic young "travelers" rather than bored, back seat whiners. Final point, to augment BOB's suggestion regarding a good map. Give serious consideration to point to point distances when planning. Don't end up spending the bulk of your time traveling from place to place; pick centralized locations from which your travel can radiate with minimal expenditure of time and effort. Follow BOB's advice and truly have a "Bon Voyage". <BR>

I think instructing neophyte visitors to Europe is the same type of thing as being a college professor. Year after year, semester after semester, the same classes with virtually the same content, are taught to a new crop of students. It makes no difference that I have said the same things over and over, the new students have not heard them yet. To them, it is all new. <BR>Suddenly you, the veteran, is presenting for the upteenth time the same thing you said last week, last month, and last year. <BR> <BR>I don't get that many requests for trip planning, so I have not yet found my self doing much repeating, except about Lauterbrunnen and the Berner Oberland. <BR>Bear in mind, though, that you are often dealing with people who are not in the habit of finding out things for themselves at a macroscopic level. Although it is hard for us to belive, I think we receive inquires from people who have never ridden a train, decided which air flight to take, or which hotel to book. <BR>I also think they know that people go to Europe, but they don't have a clear cut idea of what those people do when they get there. They hear city names like London, Paris, Prague, Vienna, Berlin, etc. Yet, they have no real notion of what each city features, or how that particular city might fit into European history, art, music, and economics. <BR>If someone suggested that it was a good idea to go to Tashkent, I would have no real idea right now of what I could do after I got there. So once you offer your services to plan trips for people, I am quite sure you are going to get a large number of freshman and sophomore inquries. The average sophomore does not want to know the theory, the concept, the framework, or the tools for self-discovery. He or she wants just one thing: the answer. <BR>So if you put yourself in the helping business, you well expect that many of your clients are those who need help the most <BR>I agree, it is frustrating to see people who show up totally uninformed and seemingly expecting you to give them a total package, one that is elegant, cheap, and flawless. If you happen not to know all of the answers you are suddenly culpable, and become the target of criticism, rejection, or even wrath. <BR>As an analogy, we have two wrens who nested on our back porch. They have worked endlessly these past few days bringing bugs which they drop in a gaping beak. But the day is coming when the young birds will be taken out of the nest and taught to fly and feed on their own. <BR>But, you know what? The parents will repeat the cycle and begin the process of fetching food and coaxing the babies along to be big birds. But, I wonder if just giving people the answer without requiring them to do a little work is really worth it. Do spoon-fed folks actually learn? Or do they just accept it, grunt, and go on their way, only to return when the next challenge hits? <BR> <BR>

Thanks, BOB, for a wonderful summary for everyone considering independent travel. Hope you don't mind, but I've printed it out and will hand it to everyone who starts a conversation with me "I'm thinking of going to Europe (or Africa, or Asia)..." <BR> <BR>Most people, at some point in their lives, have seen the ads and brochures "Europe in 14 Days!". If you take one of those tours, you DO see Europe...but a lot of the stress of traveling is taken off the tourist's back by the tour company - all accommodations, transport, entrance to sights, etc. are all arranged. You plunk down your money, show up at the airport (with the ticket that's been sent to you), arrive at your first stop with a guide to meet you who gets your luggage, etc. for the rest of the trip. If the tour bus breaks down, another arrives. If the hotel originally mentioned in the brochure isn't available, the tour company has already made the arrangements for another before you arrive. Most meals are arranged ahead, at a restaurant that caters to bus tours, with the waitstaff English-speaking (or Japanese, or whatever. The tour company knows all of this well-ahead and makes the appropriate choice of restaurant). Your bags are picked up in the morning before you check out, which is also handled by the tour guide. No muss, no fuss. <BR> <BR>All of those arrangements, pitfalls, and worries have to be handled yourself if you travel on your own...and that adds a whole lot of time, energy and stress not found on an arranged tour. Anybody who hasn't dealt with all of that will think that "Europe in 14 Days!" is feasible. That's why the questions start with "I want to see all of Europe, how do I start?", then a look of disbelief when told "narrow your choices". Gosh, if TransporterBeam Tour Company can do it, why can't I? <BR> <BR>Thanks, again, BOB. Excellent job!

Cathy/Bob Brown: Summary:). <BR>"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, *teach* a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime". Give the 1st timer your advice/experiences but also the tools (websites, forums/NG's, guidebooks, search engines etc) and they will learn so much more. Regards, Walter <BR>

Well said to all. <BR> <BR>People on here have given me help and support in planning my upcoming trip, but the key was that I first made sure the questions had not been previously dealt with on here, simply by doing key word searches. I think it is important that one not try to reinvent the wheel. <BR> <BR>On the otherhand, even though I did many searches on this and other sites for places to visit, as well as covered the many travel guide books, sometimes a traveler will drop a suggestion that will open up completely new opporunities of thought that I was not yet aware, would be a good place to see or tip to follow. <BR> <BR>This is where your help is most necessary and always appreciated. Thank you to Bob, Wes, Cindy, Elvira, Dr. Fordor (Betty), and the many others that make this an informative and nice place to visit, even if one does not have a current trip on the horizen.

All of you are wonderfully amazing in how generous and patient you are with your responses. I always want to yell at these people PICK UP A @&*&* BOOK. I recently took a trip in the US with seven other people, and not one of them had read a word about where we were going, one of the most beautiful, historical parts of the country. They had little notes in their pockets about places other people told them "be sure to see" but didn't know why they should see them. Thank you for all the time you spend answering questions. I learn so much by reading your intelligent and knowledgeable replies. Ciao!

May I say that my travel experience is microscopic compared with the other posters...I have enjoyed planning trips myself, spending months reading and researching the possibilities...However, nothing takes the place of hearing other's first hand experiences, and as you know, this Forum is so valuable for that. So you old pros need to forgive our redundancy!!! By the way, if I wanted to access information from, say, a year ago, could I do that?

Bravo all - well said!! It's just amazing how many people say "I'd like to go to Europe", and have no idea of even such rudimentary things as geography and distances! <BR> <BR>Louise - I couldn't agree with you more ("PICK UP A @&*&* BOOK"), and would only pluralize the last word! People seem to want to be spoon-fed these days, and are reluctant to dig in and do the work themselves, even when they are told where to find out the information. <BR> <BR>I would only add to the above what many of us already know - SURF! The web is an amazing resource of information (provided you learn how to wade through the "seaweed"). Many folks on this site have provided great links for us all to follow.

Bob -- I agree with everything that you said, except that in terms of how many places to do in 10 or 14 days, I would (1) disagree and advise no more than 3 places in 10 days and no more than 4 places in 14 (as a general rule I suggest at least 3 nights per stop); and (2) add that the above rule actually depends on the destinations in question, particularly how large they are and how far apart they are. For example, larger cities like Paris, London, and Rome require more like a minimum of 5 days each for a first-time visit. And if you are travelling between destinations that are far apart, people need to realize that sometimes the travel time will take up the better part of an entire day, thereby shortening the time spent in that destination. <BR> <BR>Just my opinion. I agree that one of the biggest mistakes people (including me) make is to try to fit too much into too little time, thereby unintentionally shortchanging every destination on the itinerary!

Just stopping in to applaud the advice. It is pleasant to see in black and white things about planning that you think about but never really formalized or summarized. Research is so invaluable but only a part as you mentioned. The one thing that I have seen with family and friends who were disappointed with their trips (all on escorted tours) was that they did not understand their destinations before they went and held very high expectations resulting in their disappointment. Know what you want to see and how you want to see it is soo important. They have a hard time understanding how you could have such a good time in Paris or rave about "dirty Venice" (we saw none!)etc. <BR>There are so many of you (Bob, Elvira, Wes, Monica, etc) that are so very generous with your time and experience, I cannot wait to begin planning next years trip! (This year is to OZ and NZ and that forum gets comments in 6 months, what this one gets in some individual days!!!) <BR>Thanks again for all the advice.

Couldn't agree more. For me, nearly half the fun is reading up on my destination, trying to decide the specifics of what to see/do, and then reading/surfing some more so that I'll be able to appreciate it once I see/do it! <BR> <BR>Diann - The search function on this forum works better at some times than others, but you should be able to get info at least as far back as 1998, if any exisists on your topic. Try two/three-word searches for topics like "London hotels/Paddington," or single word searches if you're trying to relocate a posting whose title you more or less remember; ie., "oops" for the language thread "Oops, that's not what I meant." You may need to scroll down through a few irrelevant posts, but you'll benefit from the wealth of information that's already here and be better able to post a request that is not redundant and therefore likely to get responses.

Yes. Well said, Bob. <BR> <BR>I seem to be developing a sub-specialism in Scotland. I love this country and I'd hate you folks to missout onthe good stuff. But twice recently I've had my heart in the mouth following responses like:- <BR>"Our itinerary is based almost 100% round what you said" <BR> <BR>What if I got it wrong? You can't sue me. And you ought to want to go on your holiday, not mine. So have some ideas first. <BR> <BR>And Louise, can I please refer my husband to you next time we go away? His line is more "Don't you have enough *&^%! books yet?" See, I can't go without at least two general ones and one specialist one for birds. I have an entire library for the island of Islay. And Cyprus! what I haven't read about Cyprus? <BR> <BR>

Point of clarification ! I agree that <BR>3 nites per location is ideal timing, <BR>but the key word above was "MAX". <BR>I get bored after about 3 days and want <BR>to move on. The only exceptions in my <BR>Euro travels have been Paris and Prague. <BR>The only 2 BIG cites I ever really did <BR>enjoy. They got 5 days each.

to the top for novice planners !

I think this is a great thread... and, there were a few others along this vein which I cannot find right now. does anyone know what I am talking about, and, could you top them if you find them? <BR> <BR> <BR>thanks <BR> <BR>Beth

I want to add that one should look at the map for the area of the country you are visiting because the food is completely different. Conwell different than Manchester, for instance Normandy from Burgundy, Milan from Naples. Know what your tastes are so you won't be disappointed. All French don't eat frog legs.

Wonderful, clear advice, Bob. Every first-time (and many experienced) travelers should have this printed out and on the fridge. <BR>One nitpick: People like those in the example you gave, with kids 9 and 13, in all probability can't go to Iberia and Italy in May or October. There's this pesky little thing called school that gets in the way of trips for those of us with kids. That doesn't diminish the value of your advice, however. Good show.

Wow--I had almost forgotten this one. I apologize for the spacing--I was still doing carriage returns back then. <BR> <BR>Here is another article that was recently updated that may also be some help to novice planners. <BR> <BR>ITALY TRAVEL BUDGET---2002 <BR>by BOB the NAVIGATOR <BR>Independent travel to Europe continues to become even more popular with American tourists, and it seems that Italia has become everyone's favorite destination. This phenomenon is certainly not difficult to understand for those of us who have learned to savor "la dolce vita". <BR>During the past four years I have been fortunate to have planned more than sixty personalized itineraries for independent travelers to southern Europe----most of them to Italy. Understandably, one of the first questions I get from a prospective client is about the projected costs. My quick answer is the obvious one----" that depends on you and your preferred travel style". As we delve deeper it becomes clear that the style choices of would-be independents can vary widely-----from youth hostel backpackers to luxury five star jet-setters. We will ignore these extremes for now and concentrate on the more mainstream middle ranges. Here are some assumptions for our hypothetical itinerary: <BR> <BR>A. This is a 14 day [13 night] itinerary to Italy for a couple during the shoulder season months of April, May, Sept. and Oct. These are the best months for travel to Italy. <BR>B. Flying into Milan or Venice and out of Rome, or vice versa, with the purchase of tourist class tickets well in advance, or from a consolidator. <BR>C. The 2-star budget assumes rail travel. The rental car options include all insurance and unlimited mileage. Car choices are compact/manual [3-star] and mid-size/auto [4-star]. <BR> <BR>Now that we have our parameters set let's go ahead and plan our budget. Remember, this is for planning purposes only and is really controlled by you. You may decide to blow the budget on Murano glass, Florentine leather, or silk in Bellagio. But, I do feel this to be a realistic estimate of expenses for this itinerary, based upon an exchange rate 2200L/$. <BR>TRAVEL EXPENSE ITEM: 2 STAR 3 STAR 4 STAR ================================================== ========== <BR>AIRFARE--2 PEOPLE 1600 1600 1600 <BR>RAIL TICKETS--2 PEOPLE 500 N/A N/A <BR>CAR RENTAL--ALL INCL. N/A 550 900 <BR>* PETROL N/A 200 250 <BR>* TOLLS N/A 50 50 <BR>TOTAL TRANSPORT $ 2100 $ 2400 $ 2800 <BR>HOTELS & INNS--13 NITES 900 1500 2200 <BR>FOOD & DRINK 600 900 1200 <BR>TOURISM COSTS 300 300 500 <BR>GELATO & CAPPUCCINO 150 150 200 <BR>MISC. EXTRAS 150 150 200 <BR> <BR>LIVING & TOURISM $ 2100 $ 3000 $ 4300 <BR>============================================== ================= <BR>TOTAL TRIP COSTS: $ 4200 $ 5400 $ 7100 BUON VIAGGIO ! <BR> <BR> <BR>Sorry about the tabs not lining up--- <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>