PalenQ

A DISCUSSION ABOUT RESERVATIONS AND RAILPASSES - From a recent thread. DollyLama makes some good points about passes and reservations.

Author: DalaiLlama

You say " I'd rather travel with a railpass than buying tickets every time, so even if it would have been a little more expensive to have a railpass, I would probably still consider it. The peace of mind it gives me is well worth the price, IME."

That could be a fallacy - you have to stand in line to get your reserved seats on highspeed trains in many places - mandatorily - and of late we hear reports that there are not enough seats being set aside for passholders - passholders were refused travel on certain trains and, if they absolutely had to travel, were forced to buy full-fare tix.

So unless you trundle around on regional trains that don't require seat reservations, you cannot benefit from the pass by showing up at the last minute. So it saves you no time, and it may not save you money, either.

There was a time when having a Eurailpass was a sinecure - no worries, just hop on any train. No more.

Author: PalenQ

The OP is however traveling only in Benenlux, Germany, Switzerland and Italy. No or nearly no trains in Benenlux, Germany or Switzerland require reservations and you can always just hop on - in France on TGVs and Corail TEOZ trains you must have reservations - usually easy to get with a passholder (French TGV trains are the only ones i know in europe where there is an allotment of pass holders per train - not a factor anywhere else TMK) and the problem in France is mainly on TGV lines to the south, esp Avignon and Nice - but even then you can always hop twice hourly TGVs to Lyon, then change to regional trains to Avignon or for Nice, TGV to Marseilles or Toulon and continue by regular trains where reservations are often nor required.

If going between Amsterdam and Paris the only direct trains are Thalys trains that require reservations AND a supplement for rail pass holders - at times 2nd class pass seats can be hard to get on the day of travel IME - but again if Amsterdam to Paris Thalys trains are full then take the about as fast IC trains from Amsterdam to Brussels then take the much more frequent Thalys Brussels-Paris trains. Or go via IC trains from Amsterdam to Antwerp and change to regional trains to Bruges (fabulous Bruges!) and then a regional train to Lille and then a French TGV to Paris - avoiding the Thalys all together and having just a simple 3 euro required TGV fee Lille-Paris (not hard to get, unlike TGV lines to the south IME).

Anyway a value of a pass also is that there are often more than one way to go between points A and B

Italy seems to have the most reservation required trains of any country. In Italy the faster trains the EuroStar Italia and InterCityp (Plus) trains require them but IC and regional do not. And you can nearly always take an alternate slower train that the faster ones.

For example from Florence to Venice last Feb there were only ES trains linking Florence SMN and Venice Santa Lucia stations - the main stations. But i did not want to pay for a reservation or really decide ahead of time and i took a shuttle train to Florence Rifredi, two miles out and just hopped on a direct IC train to Venice Mestre where again i took one of the frequent shuttle trains into Venice SLucia. The IC train was sparely full - i'd rather been on that than in the oft full Eurostar trains - took about an hour longer and stopped at more stations but to me that's fine as i love riding trains and stopping at more stations, etc.

So for nessa the railpass still offers its traditional attraction - hop on any train except some in Italy. And if a youthpass i have little doubt it will be a great deal if she/he is traveling as much as previewed.

Author: DalaiLlama

"So for the OP the railpass still offers its traditional attraction - hop on any train except some in Italy."

This contradicts poster's own earlier statements - trains in France and Benelux requiring seat reservations (for a fee).

Yes, Germany and Switzerland do not, but that's three out of five countries OP visits and is mostly concerned about that do indeed require the reservations, making a pass less valuable.

So, nessa, do your sums - a pass may, just may, be indicated for you, but it is not a foregone conclusion that it will make you happier, practically or financially.

Author: PalenQ

Belenux, France, Switzerland and Germany).

Oops my error in saying Italy - i meant to revise that part after realizing nessa was not going to Italy

So it is really only France where she has to reserve ahead - 3 euros or $4 to add to your pass cost for each TGV trips.

Thalys is the only train in Benenlux requiring reservations and you may well not take one - but if you do yes then add $15 or so for the reservation/supplement. It's the only train in Benelux requiring reservations.

Author: PalenQ
Date: 11/25/2008, 03:50 pm

I do agree with Dolly that one former benefit of a railpass - being able to hop on just any old train anytime is disappearing as european railways i think move to market pricing - various fares with advance purchases, etc. so that they now have a much higher seat capacity - not ferrying so many empty seats around and they sell those expected empty seats ahead of time online, etc. and make reservations required more and more.

But it depends on what countries still - the worst are Italy, Spain and Scandinavia in terms of mandated reservations whether or not the train is full. Italy, esp, where supplements are also imposed so that rides on high-speed trains cost 15 euros ($20-22) on top of the pass makes the Italian Railpass a non-starter for most Italian rail plans.

so far in other countries it's still just hop on - for the time being.

PalenQ

MORE TALKING ABOUT RAILPASSES

TYPES OF RAILPASSES

1-- Flexipasses

2-- Saverpasses (Twin Passes)

3-- Youthpasses

4-- Senior Passes

5-- Family Passes

6- Children's Passes - ages

7-- Eurailpasses - Global and Select Passes

8-- 2-Country Passes; Regional Passes

9-- Country Passes

10-- "Eurail trains' (ain't none)

TBC starting with 1-- Flexipasses vs Consecutive Day Passes

Back soon. Any Qs - comments, feel free to post. Thanks

PalenQ

FLEXIPASSES VS CONSECUTIVE DAY/MONTH PASSES

Whether it's a Eurailpass or a country pass like a Germany Railpass passes come in two basic forms for periods of use:

CONSECUTIVE-DAY PASSES
--giving a period say 4 straight days (4-day pass) for unlimited whatever you want to do on trains in that country) or 8-day, etc. Pretty straight forward - you activate (start using) the pass and then it is good for the number of days for unlimited travel (until midnight of the final day).

and

FLEXIPASSES

Or 'Flexible Passes' good for a certain number of unlimited travel days over a longer period - typically one or two months. Thus with a 5-day flexipass you can travel unlimited from midnight midnight on any five days of your choice throughout the two-month period - a day here, a day next week, etc. Or you could of course use it on consecutive days if you want. Thus you use the train to go great distances between your base cities - spending several days perhaps in that city without needing a railpass and then use a rail day to move on to another base city.
Conscutive passes are usually cheaper per day of travel - but flexipasses allow rail travel with passes over a longer period. In Switzerland for example the 4-day Swiss Pass is much cheaper per day than a 4-day Swiss Flexipass (in a one month period) but unless your Swiss travels fit exactly into a 4- or 8-straight day Swiss Pass then the 3-day Swiss Flexipass could be a better deal for those staying a few weeks.

TBC with
7PM RULE ON FLEXIPASSES; OVERNIGHT BOATS
SAMPLE FLEXIPASS USES

PalenQ

7PM RULE ON FLEXIPASSES; OVERNIGHT TRAINS & BOATS

One neat thing about nearly all flexipasses (can think of no exceptions in passes but could possibly be a few that do not honor the 7pm rule) is that if hopping an overnight train or boat (boats such as between Italy and Greece or Sweden and Finland, etc) then the 7pm rule says:

If you board the overnight train after 7pm then on a flexipass you would enter the next day's date as your unlimited travel day - thus the day you arrive your pass would be valid for the whole day - meaning for example if one took the overnight train from Amsterdam to Zurich you could go on the next day to Venice, Rome or wherever your pass is valid and only use up one day on a flexipass. Thus you can cover huge swathes of ground in one day on such a pass. (Another ex - overnight train Paris to Madrid and go on to Seville, Granada, Cordoba, Malaga, etc. the next day and use only one day on a flexipass.

NEXT - OVERNIGHT BOATS -A bit different but still only one day.
and i'll give some more ideas of using a FLEXIPASS to your benefit.

PalenQ

OVERNIGHT BOATS AND FLEXIPASSES
On overnight boats you have the choice of either entering the day of departure from the dock or the day of arrival at the dock - nothing to do with any 7pm rule.

And what day you enter could be more advantageous to you - example you are in Rome and want to go to Greece so you use your pass on the day you are training to the boat but the pass will not be valid when you get off the boat the next day (and if heading to Greece, from Patras buses are often better timed than the train)

and the other way - may not use your train pass flexi day to go from Athens to Patras for the boat because when you get off the next day in Italy you may want to use your pass to go onto Rome, Venice, etc.

NEXT - SOME FLEXIPASS ITINERARY EXAMPLES

PalenQ

Before going on one more thing about the 7pm (or boat) rule and flexipasses - it is only the overnight train itself (or boat) that is involved in the 7pm-midnight gratis rule (for trains) - connecting trains to the overnight train or boat do not qualify - thus for example if you take an overnight train from Milan to Paris after 7pm - the next day is your unlimited travel day and you only use one day on a pass. If you take a train to Milan, even if it's after 7pm, that don't qualify and you'd have to use two days on your pass.
It is only the overnight train itself where the 7pm pertains to.

PalenQ

One more clarification before moving on - the thing about boats and putting the day of departure or day of arrival does NOT apply to trains - it is only the overnight train itself that departs after 7pm - if it leaves at 6pm no good (though in theory you could buy a ticket that would take you to a station where the train would be after 7pm - a cheap ticket and then use the 7pm rule - never tried this but should work. There is actually a Rome-Paris night train that i think leaves at 6:55pm. I would think the conductor would treat it as the 7pm rule but you never know.

RumRita

Hi PalQ,

Been reading your threads, and think that a Benelux-Germany regional saver-pass is what my partner and I need for our April/May 2009 trip. Now my question is how to time the purchase; do I buy now, or hold out until later next year? Right now, the six day saver pass is priced at $255 each. Do you expect that that price will go higher (due to annual price increase) or lower (better $ exchange, lower gas prices, lure of tourists) next year?

PalenQ

RumRita:

Prices of Eurailpasses (which the Benelux-German pass is considered) have fluctuated several times in the past year as prices are now pegged to the Euro and not in dollars as they were until last year.

In fact all Eurailpasses (dozens of different ones now) declined a few weeks ago by a whopping 15% or so - i guess due to the stronger dollar vs weaker euro.

But before that when the dollar was falling there were periodic increases in dollar prices as the euro climbed.

Thus it is a matter of exchange rates and not any annual increase anymore.

Until recently Eurailpasses were priced in dollars and the price never, in many years, increased during the calendar year and were revised (typically up) each Jan 1. And you could save sometimes big money by buying the pass in late Dec at the previous year's price and still be able to start using the pass (activiating it) within six months of issue.

No longer the case. I have seen year-end changes and no pass increases are foreseen. Last year they actually lowered prices a week or so after Jan 1.

Therefore whether to buy early or not is simply betting on the exchange rates and IMO those are so hard to predict it ain't worth it.

Sometimes passes are discontinued and this year the Eurail Holland Pass will only be sold thru the end of the year (but can be used for six months after issue) - so this one pass would be the only reason to buy before the end of the year as you cannot buy it after Jan 1. (Prague Excursion as well.)

Cheers

RumRita

Thanks, you are a fountain of knowledge. Since there's no planned annual increase, I think we'll wait unitl next year - when we've actually got the iternary for the Berlin conference booked.

PalenQ

Rum- thanks for your nice comments. Another reason not to buy now is that once a pass is issued then if for some unforeseen reason you have to cancel your trip then you'll pay a 15% fee to refund the passes (anytime up to one year of issuance usually) and you never know, you know.

In any case i would only expect minor changes relatively in a $255 pass - either way - may go down or could go up but a few bucks either way i'd think.

BTW - Berlin is one of my all-time favorite cities - so intriguing if not the most old-world place but really you are seeing a world capital as it is being rebuilt - awesome new architecture. Enjoy. Or in Germany as they say (and i love to repeat) have a <Gute Fahrt> - good journey and you do see this often in trains.

PalenQ

LOSING A PASS - PASS PROTECTION PLAN

Another reason not to buy far in advance is that if a pass is lost or stolen there is no refund. And even though unlikely things do happen.

Passes that are NOT validated can be returned for a refund with usually one year of issuance and incur a 15-20% cancellation fee, depending on the type of pass (six months time with some).

PASS PROTECTION PLAN
The PPP that is offered at time of sale only is a protection plan that currently costs about $10 per individual country pass or $14 per individual Eurailpass (including two-country passes) or $17 per pass (not per person) for Saver Passes - this program will reimburse you for either:

1- The value of your pass when you lost it or had it stolen from you in Europe

or 2- the cost of replacement tickets that you bought to finish your travels after you lost the pass.

--whatever is less will then be refunded to your after you come back (no refund in Europe). Thus if you lost your pass just after you started using it you would get most of the pass cost refunded - but if you lost it near the end of your trip you would only get the cost of whatever replacement tickets you bought to finish your travels (which still could be substantial if say you have to still return to Amsterdam from Rome, etc.)

I'll discuss this more next time as there are hoops to jump thru.

PalenQ

PPP Hoops

first of all PPP does not kick in until your pass is validated in Europe - lose it before and zilch - no refund either. Then after you lose it or have it stolen from you then you must file a police report - now that to me would be a daunting task in and of itself and perhaps waste much of a day.

And as said before you have to buy replacement tickets as you go along to finish your trip - you getting back the lesser of what you paid for those tickets or the value of your pass when you lost it. (On a Flexipass there is NO way to know how many days you have used however except what you say.)

I would also check Homeowners' insurance policy, travel insurance and see what coverage they may have for such losses. Unfortunately however tickets are often only covered for the cost of the paper they are printed on!!!

PalenQ

PPP More on

Since the cost of the insurance is the same regardless of how much the pass costs then, duh, a pass that cost says $1,000 would pay the same PPP cost as one costing $200. Paying $17 to insure a $1,000 Saver Pass is a better deal than to insure a $350 saver pass.

Upshot: I would never buy the PPP because i will never lose my PPP (have not yet in well over 100 types of passes) - why - because i always - always carry it in my moneybelt under my clothes - from when i get on the plane until my last train ride. Luckily i have no been mugged - very rare occurence except in Spain IME.

But it i were buying a 2-mouth Youth Eurailpass for a 21-yr old then i would, as the parent, buy the insurance, knowing how 'dumb' younger folk can be (based on when i was that age).

PPP must be bought at time of issuance - cannot be added on later. RailEurope and some sites automatically include it in the price and you must un-check the box to not get it - so beware online sales if you do not want the PPP automatically slipped in.

mjs

A train question if you do not mind. Have, in the past used the 2 month Eurail pass several times but have only used point to point or airlines since. Going to Europe in a few weeks as I am going to visit some colleagues in London January 5-10. Have decided to go early and spend a week or so on the continent. Considering Munich Dec 28-Jan 2 than Paris or perhaps Normandy January 2-5. There is a early 0620 Thy from Munich to Paris on Jan 2. I suspect trains during this time might be very crowded. Should I spring for 1st class? If so might not a 4 day Saverpass work just as well and give me some flexibility for other travel while on the Continent? Cost of the pass is around $350/person while it looks like 1st class tickets are around $560/2. Considering a day trip to Salzburg while in Munich. Train pass would also give us some flexibility in leaving Munich early and going somewhere else if the weather turns out to be horrible in Germany.
Will probably do the Eurostar from either Calais or Paris to London on the 4th or 5th.

PalenQ

mjs - always entertain questions as others also benefit from the answer. That said - i'm mulling it over and will be back soon.

mjs

A follow up question. Have now seen a new available 1st class one way fare that was not available a few days ago.
It is called a Europa-Spezial Frankreich. What I am trying to interpret is "Valid only on booked train. Exchange and refund charge of EUR 15 before 1st day of validity, no exchanges or refunds as from 1st day of validity.
Train with reservation obligation included (Fare incl. Res.), Through reservation not free of charge"
Does this mean that if I buy the tickets I can get a full refund minus 15 Euros if I change my mind one day before the reserved train is to leave Munich?

PalenQ

mjs - last Q first - i would assume yes that if you cancel or want to change up to one day before you'd pay 15 euros either to refund ticket or change it. But changing it i think may be subject to tickets in that limited number fare category to be available or you may have to pay full price.

You are considering the France-Germany Railpass it seems and it will take you to Salzburg without any extra charge.

Like you have figured in first class these passes are more cost effective. But since you subsequently found a discounted ticket i would think the pass then would not be cost effective.

In Munich area you can use the Bavaria Pass - where for i think 29 euros for up to five folks (not sure but lots has been on Fodor's about this) can ride all public transports in Bavaria for a day - except the fastest trains (only on regional trains) - and would also take you to Salzburg.

Paris-Normandy trains are not all that expensive - but yes if going first class and paying walk up fares the pass seems a bargain.

I would think on Jan 2 trains would be sparsely full and that's probably why that first-class special is still available or available at all.

www.voyages-sncf.com of course has online deals for travel from Paris to Munich.

PalenQ

As for the Eurostar trains and passholder fares - passholder fares can be great deals for folks only going one way but for round trips then the Leisure fares are usually much cheaper - so passholder fare on Eurostar is not a reason to consider a pass for you. Keep in mind that the cheap Leisure return fares i believe have to go and come from the same station - cannot mix Paris and Calais - at least i think - i know with Brussels and Paris no mix and match and assume Calais as well.

And Eurostar tickets should be booked as far in advance as possible - cheapest fares in limited numbers. www.eurostar.com for fares in Pounds or in dollars - these are e tickets you retrieve the actual Eurostar ticket at check-in, which must be at least 30 mins prior to guarantee getting thru the gates and special security.

PalenQ

ACTIVATING YOUR PASS

After your pass is issued you generally have six months in which to activate the pass at a train station by a railway official, or, in some limited circumstances, by a conductor on the train.

So you take your passports and your unactivated pass to any ticket window and the clerk will then enter the days of validity and stamp the pass to start it. If a flexipass good for a set number of days used anytime over a 1- or 2-month period then the clerk will just enter the dates of the one month or 2-month period (not necessarily 30 days or 60 days, depending on the month).

Then you will find a series of empty boxes on the pass where you are supposed to enter the date in ink (European style -day, month - like today: 17-12) - then once done you have used up one day - conductors generally will punch a whole in the used box when they look at the pass.

If you have not entered the date by the time the conductor comes by then you risk paying a penalty plus the regular fare as you do not have a valid ticket to ride - so be sure to fill the date in before the conductor comes around. (Whilst many conductors may let tourists slide more than a few will not - someone told me in Germany he had not filled in the date and the conductor filled it in AND another box as well as a penalty!)

If it's a consecutive-day pass then the clerk upon activation will just enter the dates of say a 15-straight day period, etc. Then you have until midnight on the last day entered to use the pass.

TBC
PRE-ACTIVATION -Saver Pass
REFUNDS
EURAIL AID OFFICES