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anon Nov 10th, 2001 07:53 PM

Perhaps we have a community
and that means: We have the clever and the dull, the jerks and the saints, and the crude and the prude. So be it. Ironically, that is a lot like REAL life. Please stop expecting perfection in a virtual world. Please stop thinking that "registration" will change anything. Does "registration" change things in your "real" life? No. People are still jerks or nice or serial killers. Please stop asking for censorship, because it happens. Yes, first those posts that offend you (are censored), then (your) posts that offend me (are censored).

grasshopper Nov 10th, 2001 09:10 PM

Anon, you have some great points! This is a community, complete with all kinds of characters. And personally I feel it's easy to ignore the objectionable or silly posters. But why I don't find it all that easy to ignore is the poster who uses the name of someone who consistently uses a same name or nickname's identity to post something unfairly. And THAT is something registration will prevent. I honestly don't understand why people are so hung up on that concept. Just get a free email address for this purpose alone and own up to your remarks.

xxx Nov 11th, 2001 02:48 AM

I probably agree, anon. But sometime about the middle of September the bad guys took over; we can all choose who to commune with, can't we? And round here, these days, it's no fun. <BR><BR>Life's too short. I, for one, drop in now and again looking for an improvement, and if Blah was a one off, it wouldn't matter, but he/she is becoming the norm

Kavey Nov 11th, 2001 06:28 AM

Hello<BR><BR>I just had to post after anonymous's comment above and say that I have returned over the last few days to a limited extent but am still feeling much much less inclined to post as I used to. (And also, I am not really very sweet, I am just me, with my bad temper days and my stupid moments, just like anyone else!)<BR><BR>I think you are right that the nasties were always here, but I think the difference now is that they infect nearly every thread. Before Sept 11 they were around, but much good travel talk could go on without interference. Now they seem to hijack everything.<BR><BR>Even the thread for Ed was hijacked which I felt was the ultimate in appalling behaviour.<BR><BR>I really do feel they are terrorists themselves, and should be routed out in the same way the world is trying to deal with physical terrorism these days.<BR><BR>If registration would help I would be for it although it couldnt entirely stop them because anyone can open a hotmail account and register with that and continue to make horrible remarks. That registered user could then be banned but just set up another account and register again. I think though that it might at least deter enough of the morons to redress the balance.<BR><BR>I used to feel a weird kind of ownership here, that I shared this special resource with hundreds of others who made it what it was and that it was our excellent place. Of course I always knew it was Fodors property, but the people who used it made it what it was. And not just old hands but anyone who posted genuinely, newbies, oldies, everyone but the nasties. Even the occasional more witty and less nasty trolls! And so I felt a duty to the board, a feeling that I should try and fight the nasties to retain what was important because it was something worth fighting for.<BR><BR>That is what has gone for me. I still post answers to help where I can, I got a lot out of this board and want to put some advice back in. But I don?t bother with the personal threads because I don?t feel a desire to participate that way anymore.<BR><BR>Infact I found a different board where I can know that my opinion won?t be trashed, (someone might disagree, but will remain polite and respectful and use reasoned argument). I know that I can talk about what I want to talk about without a strangely inconsistent censor deleting some innocuous posts but leaving other vile offerings untouched. (I am not against deletions per se, just the half baked way Fodors are carrying them out at the moment).<BR><BR>Whilst the original anon is right to say all communities have a few idiots, bullies and downright nutters, the proportion is low enough that ordinary folk can overwhelm the bullies, and perhaps mitigate the nutters.<BR><BR>Here that balance is different. <BR><BR>Where a whole thread is pointless nastiness, I can ignore it. But when so many good threads are spoiled, with unecessary cruelty and mockery, I can?t always ignore it. And I think that?s a problem many others are finding too.<BR>

mark Nov 11th, 2001 09:15 AM

Grasshopper - sometimes the tea cup must be emptied to be filled again.<BR><BR>I've noticed that "the regulars" aren't posting as much as usual - which may encourage other posters to participate more often. Things change. <BR><BR>Interesting that on the weekend the nasties seems to be fewer. Also - I'm inclined to guess that the nasties will move on to another public forum to stir things up. Why? Nasties have an opinion about everything and think they have a duty to share their insights - you know the type - the ones people manuever away from at cocktail parties once their open mouths. Notice time stamp on Blah's comment - 1:35 AM - technically Sunday morning but really Saturday night. Most likely Home Alone, part 432 - obviously someone who has nothing to do.<BR><BR>Also - if the nasties make us question ourselves a bit - that's a good thing. I make a point of not jumping to answer or give a "saved - copy - paste" answer to every other post - which I notice some people do. Information has a short shelf life - especially in travel. When people give info that is 2 / 3 / 5 years old I wonder why they're answering. Is it to be helpful or is it just to answer?<BR><BR>I don't visit as often mainly because I've realized that much of the information I want can only be found by doing the work myself. That means going to the library or bookstore. The internet while wonderful has a lot of garbage. Many people come here to abbreviate their effort to do the research. While I've read some good tibits - nothing compares to researching on my own. <BR><BR>Enough of my to Katz's for a pastrami on rye (with brown mustard)

Barbara Nov 11th, 2001 10:12 AM

Mark, when you consider the time of a posting, please try to remember that this "community" is not only on the east coast of the US. Here on the west coast and in Hawaii,not to mention the rest of the world, the time is different. So perhaps you refrain from leaping to conclusions based on the assumption that a poster lives in the Eastern US time zone.

mark Nov 11th, 2001 10:28 AM

Barbara - so you think Blah's post is acceptable? And all you could respond to is a time zone issue? And nothing is to say that Blah isn't in the eastern time zone. You're making an extremely minor - petty point about a pointless post. I think the "community" might agree that nasty posts stem from people who are bored - teenagers possibly. So the real point to your post is what?

Hail Hail Nov 11th, 2001 10:53 AM

Oh, Mark, you just blew it with your last reponse. You had been doing so well, too. Sigh. <BR><BR>Barbara, good point. When some of us are going to bed for the evening, others of us are just starting work in the morning on the other side of the world. <BR><BR>I do agree with an earlier poster that some people have become to sensitive to the nasties and the bullies. <BR><BR>Fodors is and was and will continue to be a great site. Travelers make great posters, as a rule, with lots of interesting insight into many different aspects of traveling. <BR><BR>I think it's time for everyone to come back, ignore the meanies, and enjoy all that Fodors and the majority of its posters have to offer.

mark Nov 11th, 2001 11:01 AM

and Hail, how did I blow it? Very few people - if any - always pitch perfectly.So please enlighten me. Enlighten me....

Mr. Herbert Pocket Nov 11th, 2001 11:53 AM

Mark, I don't know why you are lashing out at Barbara. Is it because she corrected you? Remember, Mark, people in glass houses......

not again Nov 11th, 2001 12:14 PM

children, STop it

anon, II Nov 11th, 2001 12:19 PM

Anon, so true about the registration and censorship. If someone on this site wants something to be censored, don't read the offensive posts and most of all don't answer them. Ignoring them would be the best censorship anyone could provide.

mark Nov 11th, 2001 12:40 PM

How am I lashing out? The thread is about community - not time zones. Blah's comments were a put down about anon's & grasshopper's comments and un-neccesary. No? I think Barbara's choosing to focus on just my assumption (are you satisfied now?) about the time is a minor point to the main thrust of the thread. As the original post said - stop expecting perfection. Hail's commments really don't say anything new or anything that we wouldn't agree with. <BR>Are you bothered that I'm not adhereing to your percieved notions of civility? I'm not insulting Barbara I'm questioning her focus. Just as you are doing to me. While I may be a bit direct - I believe in being so - maybe it has to do with being a NYer. <BR>In some ways this really is about discourse. Do we want monotoned cliched "...oh you're so wonderful..." drivel or do we want something more real? If you're going to contribute - contribute something new. Not something rehashed - that's what the search function is for. It might be one of the reasons why people are going elsewhere. <BR>And I'd like to challenge Barbara, Hail Hail and Mr. Pocket to actually put themselves out here instead of just being a critic. This is what community is about. You want perfection - turn off the tv, the computer, lock the door and order in. Just teasing in case you couldn't figure that out....

Holy Smokes Nov 11th, 2001 01:13 PM

Mark, calm down. Yes, we would like more civility here. Barbara posted what she chose to post. You have that same right. We really don't need any more police here, Mark. Say your piece, and let Barbara say hers. <BR><BR>You are a little bit edgy. Relax. Deep breaths. You'll be fine. Keep on posting, you are making a lot of sense. (But just focus on your posts, okay?)

mark Nov 11th, 2001 01:34 PM

Maybe I should have gone with the pastrami instead of the spicy cold noodles and hot & sour soup. Kinda like when Helena Bonheim (?) Carter in Room With A View said "..mother always said that Beethoven made me peevish.." <BR><BR>No offense was meant....I just enjoy a good game of tennis.<BR><BR>So getting back to community...anybody else?

Holy Smokes Nov 11th, 2001 01:43 PM

Welcome back, Mark. Good response. You are right about the regular posters. But they are out there and they are reading the posts here. I suspect that when everything settles down, they'll be back. Fodors gets in your blood and it is very hard to stay away for very long. The love of travel is best shared, don't you think?

Caressa Nov 11th, 2001 01:51 PM

Yes Mark. You do make some valid points. My gripe are the posters who love the sound of their voices and post constantly as if they have a starring role, but hey, that's them and I have learned to roll with it. Hang in here everyone. No nasties need apply.

kateconrad Nov 11th, 2001 02:04 PM

When I started reading these posts, I noticed the same names answering queries, Capo,Surlock, etc, and I was impressed with their helpfulness and I wanted to read whatever they advised, and compare it with what I knew..that was fun. Then just over the past 2 months, the really vicious ones started.As always, there are the petty ones, the real nit- pickers, but what has offended me the most are the ones like Ed's post, the ones who have no respect and try to incite argument.For this reason, I have tried not to say anything that would bring this ugliness on me..Mark, I was upset by an especially unpleasant thread and commented on it elsewhere, and you answered my response-Thank you again-you were a pleasant,calm voice,being objective and made me stop and look at it from another angle. And as you told me then ,there will always be the petty ones who will check to be sure that every aspect of your post is word perfect, you just have to ignore if this is a community, I think I will visit it now and then , but not get too involved in the day to day goings-on~K

mark Nov 11th, 2001 02:52 PM

I agree Kate.<BR>I think visiting every now and then will keep me from "straining on gnats and swallowing camels". It's easy to get caught up in the verbage. I sometimes forget<BR>. <BR>Thanks for your kind comments.<BR> <BR>"..keep your defenses, but don't shut the loving out, you've got learn to carry that weight..." Betsy Cooke, The Girl Who Ate Herself

Jenny Bell Nov 12th, 2001 02:38 PM

In a community, those who offend others are made to make restitution of some kind to those they have offended. In a community people treat each other with respect. In a community people rarely berate each other, scream in one another's faces and call each other "moron", "idiot", etc. If Fodors today is a community, I hate to think of how society as a whole will evolve in the future! I really have to wonder about the home lives of some of "the nasties". Perfection? No, I hardly expect perfection, as no one of us IS perfect. Respect? Yes, I don't ask for one iota more, nor do I accept one iota less.

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