Perceptions of 'Europe'?
May 4th, 2004, 03:26 AM
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Perceptions of 'Europe'?
I'm sure that this is a pretty general post and may in fact have been covered before, but I've been spending some time on this site of late and my curiousity has been aroused - particularly reading the thread regarding 'What Europeans do better' (or something along those lines).
What are the perceptions of 'Europe' by non-Europeans prior to travel? By this I mean, is there a general tendency to 'clump' all European states together and treat as one place (ie. 'We're going to Europe this summer); or is there an implicit understanding that our countries vary ENORMOUSLY in a cultural and political sense? Have your travels here altered the way that you view 'Europe' as a whole?
I am NOT writing this to be in any way argumentative, I am genuinesly interested. I know, for example, that my view of the States has altered considerably as a result of my travels there - I now make rather less sweeping generalisations than I did before - so we ARE all guilty!!
What are the perceptions of 'Europe' by non-Europeans prior to travel? By this I mean, is there a general tendency to 'clump' all European states together and treat as one place (ie. 'We're going to Europe this summer); or is there an implicit understanding that our countries vary ENORMOUSLY in a cultural and political sense? Have your travels here altered the way that you view 'Europe' as a whole?
I am NOT writing this to be in any way argumentative, I am genuinesly interested. I know, for example, that my view of the States has altered considerably as a result of my travels there - I now make rather less sweeping generalisations than I did before - so we ARE all guilty!!
May 4th, 2004, 03:30 AM
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<<is there a general tendency to 'clump' all European states together and treat as one place (ie. 'We're going to Europe this summer)>>
For me, never. But I still sense tht attitude from some adults who have never traveled at all outside the country and who have no particular interest, hobbies, or educational background that turns on foreign cultures.
For me, never. But I still sense tht attitude from some adults who have never traveled at all outside the country and who have no particular interest, hobbies, or educational background that turns on foreign cultures.
May 4th, 2004, 03:46 AM
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tallulah, good luck, but I see a real cat fight coming.
This forum is really not someplace where you will spark any meaningful exchange of deep and insightful cultural views.
Posts like this soon become a major lightening rod for mud slinging and defensive posts from both sides of the Atlantic. Politics will creep in and before you know it .... .
But who knows, maybe we get lucky so let's see what happens.
This forum is really not someplace where you will spark any meaningful exchange of deep and insightful cultural views.
Posts like this soon become a major lightening rod for mud slinging and defensive posts from both sides of the Atlantic. Politics will creep in and before you know it .... .
But who knows, maybe we get lucky so let's see what happens.
May 4th, 2004, 04:23 AM
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Generalizations. OK, let me start that my perceptions is shaped by my actual experiences and contacts with Europeans here in North America. After all, North America is a melting pot of many cultures, Europeans included.
Back then, I used to perceive that Italians have this very generous way about them when it comes to having fun (i.e. "here, have some some", "try this", "I've got the bill covered"...); the French were snotty, yet sophisticated; and the British cheap, always uptight and condescending with nothing more than traditions and history to back them up.
Some of these perceptions were changed soon after my first European trip. Others were reinforced.
I just love the fact that we have ground rules here established by tallulah ... "for anyone reading, PLEASE no bitching!"
Back then, I used to perceive that Italians have this very generous way about them when it comes to having fun (i.e. "here, have some some", "try this", "I've got the bill covered"...); the French were snotty, yet sophisticated; and the British cheap, always uptight and condescending with nothing more than traditions and history to back them up.
Some of these perceptions were changed soon after my first European trip. Others were reinforced.
I just love the fact that we have ground rules here established by tallulah ... "for anyone reading, PLEASE no bitching!"
May 4th, 2004, 04:25 AM
#6
I think of Europe as a place where you can travel just a short distance and find yourself in an entirely different culture, with different language, food, customs, and atmosphere. This is a heady experience for someone who lives in a country where you can drive for a week without encountering anything very different from the culture of your own home town.
That said, it seems to me that Europe is a lot less like this than it used to be. Traveling now, I see many more things that remind me of the U.S. than I did traveling a decade or two decades ago. I am also fascinated that so many European countries have agreed to unite and use a common currency, given their history of diversity.
That said, it seems to me that Europe is a lot less like this than it used to be. Traveling now, I see many more things that remind me of the U.S. than I did traveling a decade or two decades ago. I am also fascinated that so many European countries have agreed to unite and use a common currency, given their history of diversity.
May 4th, 2004, 04:28 AM
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This is not exactly the answer to your question, but I have often wished that I could photograph from my mind what I think a place will be like before I travel there. I would like to be able to compare what I thought it would look and feel like with the reality. Unfortunately, the reality is set in my mind once I return, and I can never recall that pre-trip dream. That was particularly true of Venice, Moscow, and Positano.
May 4th, 2004, 04:42 AM
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I'm working without a second cup of coffee, but here goes:
I fear that what Americans usually think of european charm and character is already eroding. Is a dull, drab sameness soon to come?
What is causing it? Who knows, but is it partly due to restrictive EU rules and regulations, low birth rates, absorption of large numbers of non-europeans(with high birth rates), and a strong perception that openess and acceptance and "one world" values are good things?
I fear that what Americans usually think of european charm and character is already eroding. Is a dull, drab sameness soon to come?
What is causing it? Who knows, but is it partly due to restrictive EU rules and regulations, low birth rates, absorption of large numbers of non-europeans(with high birth rates), and a strong perception that openess and acceptance and "one world" values are good things?
May 4th, 2004, 05:05 AM
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Despite the European Union and its ramifications, I still think of Europe as a place where, even within a particular country, there are vast differences in culture, geography, food, and politics, among other things. One of the things I love about Europe is that, even within a single country, you can travel 100 kilometers and feel as though you are experiencing something entirely new.
That said, it has taken me 60+ trips to Europe to arrive at this viewpoint. I doubt most first-time travelers would have the same perspective, just as first-time travelers to the USA would probably arrive at some generalized view of us.
That said, it has taken me 60+ trips to Europe to arrive at this viewpoint. I doubt most first-time travelers would have the same perspective, just as first-time travelers to the USA would probably arrive at some generalized view of us.
May 4th, 2004, 05:33 AM
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I think this can question can provide for a "useful" thread (my own definition is that it provides some worthwhile pastime reading for <i>me</i>; whether it leads to more or less viewership for Fodors is really of no interest to me).
And I think "bitching" is just as welcome as any other passionate statements. Is an excess of slobbering on and on, "ooh"-ing and "aah"-ing about Europe (haven't we all done that sometime?) somehow any more appropriate than a rant against the original question or any subsequent reply (including ranting at me)?
For me, the answer is both: yes, I do clump together all of Europe as offering something not available in just about anywhere USA. My family and I are taking our first "major" trip within the USA nine days from now, and it simply is not in the same (mental) "territory" (for me, at least) as any trip to Europe I have ever made - - even a three day all-business jaunt (to Holland, for example) provided an excitement/anticipation that is not quite there for the splendors and fabulous places we are headed to see in California. The "vive la difference" for me is based primarily on three things: 1) they don't speak English, and so that is a 24/24 mental challenge, in a fun way, to try to meet them part of the way across the language barrier; 2) the food and 3) the wine. Almost everything else about Europe can be rivaled in the US or other places (even if it is an apples vs. oranges comparison) - - and in fact, for me, "seeing the sights" can be reasonably "duplicated" through armchair travel, on the internet, movies, TV, radio, books or magazines. I guess that's why I still like traveling with (and assisting others here on this forum) who are still relatively inexperienced. Reliving that awe of "seeing it for the first time" with others who just stop, jaw-dropped at their first glimpse of the Colosseum, or Lake Lucerne, or the Old Town Square in Prague.
And yet, on the flip side, I do NOT, of course clump Europe together. Indeed, I struggle with planning any trip if it does not include France - - because, well... it just doesn't scratch my France itch... to go to Graz, or Bilbao or Trento or Lubeck. ANY visit to Europe is really NOT a substitute for specific cravings I have for THOSE cheeses, THAT soupe de poisson, "zat special somesing" which can only come from a very late, bonne soiree with friends and a little too much calvados.
And Europe keeps changing, moving into and even defining the 21st century (considerably more than much of rural midwest, small-town America! for me) so Europe is the big city, the future, and a glimpse at where our children might "live" tomorrow - - not just the battlefields of Arromanches or Agincourt, the stone and glass remnants of the doges, popes and Kaisers - - each time I return.
Good thread, Tallulah.
Oh goodness, I better go do some work in my "real world".
Best wishes,
Rex
And I think "bitching" is just as welcome as any other passionate statements. Is an excess of slobbering on and on, "ooh"-ing and "aah"-ing about Europe (haven't we all done that sometime?) somehow any more appropriate than a rant against the original question or any subsequent reply (including ranting at me)?
For me, the answer is both: yes, I do clump together all of Europe as offering something not available in just about anywhere USA. My family and I are taking our first "major" trip within the USA nine days from now, and it simply is not in the same (mental) "territory" (for me, at least) as any trip to Europe I have ever made - - even a three day all-business jaunt (to Holland, for example) provided an excitement/anticipation that is not quite there for the splendors and fabulous places we are headed to see in California. The "vive la difference" for me is based primarily on three things: 1) they don't speak English, and so that is a 24/24 mental challenge, in a fun way, to try to meet them part of the way across the language barrier; 2) the food and 3) the wine. Almost everything else about Europe can be rivaled in the US or other places (even if it is an apples vs. oranges comparison) - - and in fact, for me, "seeing the sights" can be reasonably "duplicated" through armchair travel, on the internet, movies, TV, radio, books or magazines. I guess that's why I still like traveling with (and assisting others here on this forum) who are still relatively inexperienced. Reliving that awe of "seeing it for the first time" with others who just stop, jaw-dropped at their first glimpse of the Colosseum, or Lake Lucerne, or the Old Town Square in Prague.
And yet, on the flip side, I do NOT, of course clump Europe together. Indeed, I struggle with planning any trip if it does not include France - - because, well... it just doesn't scratch my France itch... to go to Graz, or Bilbao or Trento or Lubeck. ANY visit to Europe is really NOT a substitute for specific cravings I have for THOSE cheeses, THAT soupe de poisson, "zat special somesing" which can only come from a very late, bonne soiree with friends and a little too much calvados.
And Europe keeps changing, moving into and even defining the 21st century (considerably more than much of rural midwest, small-town America! for me) so Europe is the big city, the future, and a glimpse at where our children might "live" tomorrow - - not just the battlefields of Arromanches or Agincourt, the stone and glass remnants of the doges, popes and Kaisers - - each time I return.
Good thread, Tallulah.
Oh goodness, I better go do some work in my "real world".
Best wishes,
Rex
May 4th, 2004, 06:06 AM
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The more you know the less the need to generalize. The differences are vast. Not just by countries but by regions. I always perceive Europe by regions. Tyrol is not Tuscany. Veneto is not Sicily.
May 4th, 2004, 07:27 AM
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ChatNoir, you are so RIGHT about your observations of why Europe is changing ..
I am European and can see the change everytime I go back to Europe...
With the European birth rate so low and all the immigrants that come by boat loads bringing with them their cultures, religions etc..,also they believe in having large families, the way of life is rapidaly changing and perhaps in less than 50 years from now, the old Europe that we know will be( a remembrance of a glorious time that is not there anymore) just like the words of an old Roman Stornello (Ballade).
I am European and can see the change everytime I go back to Europe...
With the European birth rate so low and all the immigrants that come by boat loads bringing with them their cultures, religions etc..,also they believe in having large families, the way of life is rapidaly changing and perhaps in less than 50 years from now, the old Europe that we know will be( a remembrance of a glorious time that is not there anymore) just like the words of an old Roman Stornello (Ballade).
May 8th, 2004, 07:03 AM
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I think that people have a tendency to 'clump' as you put it because, particularly in the US, World history and geography is woefully ill-taught (if at all..); which is a shame considering the major influence that European nations have had in shaping the world as we know it today. Therefore the cultural and political differences are never made apparent. Just my personal view...
May 8th, 2004, 10:41 AM
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Before our first trip, I had expected that there would be vast differences among the European countries and regions. In practice, however, I found the differences to be almost minimal. In part, I think that this is because when we travel, we tend to be in tourist areas or museums, surrounded by tourists from everywhere, so we are all pretty similar. Even when we have gotten into non-tourist areas, the uniqueness that I anticipated has not been there. I'm not complaining, because we have seen a lot of wonderful things. I'm just saying that we found most European countries little more different from home than, say, Mississippi.
May 8th, 2004, 11:53 AM
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I think before people travel or travel much they tend to clump countries into a single "europe" - and there are in fact a lot of things that are european (ie different than they are in the US). In my experience the more you travel (especially the more you travel outside of the few biggest cities) the more apparent the differences between various countries become.
However, I do believe that the differences between counries - and between european countries and the US - have become at least outwardly less over the last 20/25 years. Whether this is true on a more basic level is harder to tell for an outsider - we after all - seldom get to see/understand a lot of the unspoken assumptions underlying social norms.
(I have had some more in-depth experiences with a few europeans via work situations and in my experience the deeper you delve the greater the apparent differences. For example I had assumed that the Britisih class system was being slowly eroded by greater educational/job opportunities etc. But as an American I have found a lot of the attitudes about class I have run into in the last couple of years from young people frankly shocking. Perhaps this is a function of the specific people involved. Or perhaps its related to the fact that it seems to be difficult for someone British to classify Americans - they seem to make assumptions about our social/income background based on things like profession, education, income and even what type of car you drive. So perhaps when they talk to me they think they're talking to one of themselves - who will operate under the same set of assumptions. They seemed to see upward mobility aas something to be deprecated and ridiculed - rather than to be celebrated.)
However, I do believe that the differences between counries - and between european countries and the US - have become at least outwardly less over the last 20/25 years. Whether this is true on a more basic level is harder to tell for an outsider - we after all - seldom get to see/understand a lot of the unspoken assumptions underlying social norms.
(I have had some more in-depth experiences with a few europeans via work situations and in my experience the deeper you delve the greater the apparent differences. For example I had assumed that the Britisih class system was being slowly eroded by greater educational/job opportunities etc. But as an American I have found a lot of the attitudes about class I have run into in the last couple of years from young people frankly shocking. Perhaps this is a function of the specific people involved. Or perhaps its related to the fact that it seems to be difficult for someone British to classify Americans - they seem to make assumptions about our social/income background based on things like profession, education, income and even what type of car you drive. So perhaps when they talk to me they think they're talking to one of themselves - who will operate under the same set of assumptions. They seemed to see upward mobility aas something to be deprecated and ridiculed - rather than to be celebrated.)
May 8th, 2004, 02:59 PM
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This discussion brought to mind the opening words to "An Australian in America" by a journalist named David Dale:
"The longer you've been in a country, the harder it becomes to make generalisations about it. I have been in America only 11 days now, most of them in New York, so I can cheerfully assert the following propositions:
1. The Chrysler Buliding is the most beautiful feat of architecture in the 20th century.
2. All Americans are selling something.
3. All Americans are so polite it's scary.
4. You can get anything you want in New York (and a lot of things you don't want), except an early morning wake-up call and a public toilet when you most need it."
The book concludes, "Americans are impossible to generalise about."
If this is true of America (as it is), how much more so of Europe? On the other hand, my travels have tended to impress on me that the traits that we all have in common are more significant than the mostly superficial differences.
"The longer you've been in a country, the harder it becomes to make generalisations about it. I have been in America only 11 days now, most of them in New York, so I can cheerfully assert the following propositions:
1. The Chrysler Buliding is the most beautiful feat of architecture in the 20th century.
2. All Americans are selling something.
3. All Americans are so polite it's scary.
4. You can get anything you want in New York (and a lot of things you don't want), except an early morning wake-up call and a public toilet when you most need it."
The book concludes, "Americans are impossible to generalise about."
If this is true of America (as it is), how much more so of Europe? On the other hand, my travels have tended to impress on me that the traits that we all have in common are more significant than the mostly superficial differences.
May 8th, 2004, 03:39 PM
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I wouldn't worry so much about immigrants coming into Europe changing what Europe is about. Here in the US we've had immigrants coming in for a few centuries now and we've turned out ok, and even better off for it. I don't think the US would be half as interesting without the Asian or Latino influences.
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