"...how do you know 40% of British Muslims want infidels heads cut off; folks burned to death in cages; girls not allowed to go to school; slavery to be put in practice; men to have up to five wives; adulterers to be stoned to death; thieves' hands cut off" - fuss - where did you get that from this article."

I don't know how many British Muslims support ALL that stuff. The poll didn't ask all that - just about Shariah. The 40% obviously support hacking off hands of thieves - that's pure Shariah, PalenQ. But the fact is that 40% support using Shariah law in Britain (and it's also a fact that ISIS supports Shariah as well.)

So... 40% of British Muslims think death is the right response for apostasy (Shariah) and for criticism of the Quran or Mohammed (Shariah,) that a woman's word in court is worth half a man's word (Shariah,) etc., etc. And Isis is showing up everywhere to offer them just that and more. They may disagree with Isis on what METHOD of death should be used on homosexuals or whether they should be lashed 100 times or stoned, I don't know. But why split hairs?

So your point is what? We should welcome Shariah-supporting Muslims in Britain and elsewhere? We should assume they'll hate ISIS like the rest of us, even though they want our current justice system turned on its head, even though they share the same desire for Shariah?

PalenQ - those tickets would be one-way.
The line forms to the left...I've got my checkbook ready.

But the fact is that 40% support using Shariah law in Britain (and it's also a fact that ISIS supports Shariah as well.)>

can't equate how any Muslims interpret Sharia law - like the Qu'aran and Bible lots of possible interpretations.

60% of British Muslims do not support Sharia Law - lots of good Muslims in that 60% and even in 40% whose definition of Sharia Law I think falls far short of ISIL's.

anyway I'll be ordering up several thousand plane tickets - shortly from you.

Sorry PQ - those tickets are only meant for the verbal terrorists who frequent this forum.

I wonder what % of Jews support the Beth Din Courts in the UK
http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed151092

Neither the Jewish or Muslim courts impinge on my civil liberties unless I subscribe.
The Quran is not open to interpretation for it is the word of God. "The koran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammadp, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago."

Hadiths are open to interpretation. "Hadith
haˈdiːθ/
noun
plural noun: Hadiths
a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad which, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.
any of the sayings from the Hadith.

Actually, New York City suffered a situation where local prosecutors -- who were elected, not appointed -- quietly looked the other way and didn't pursue some criminal cases in Orthodox neighbourhoods in favour of letting the rabbis handle it as an "internal" matter -- not unlike many child molestation cases within the Catholic church.

The relationship of ISIS to Islam reminds me of the Ku Klux Klan's relationship to Christianity. KKK burns Christian crosses as their "signature" of terror and intimidation, and has an elaborate "theology" that attempts to prove that the natural order of God's plan is white Christian supremacy. These people were as brutal as ISIS. One of the Paris attackers made a video of himself gleefully dragging around corpses tied to the back of his car. KKK did it for years, along with burning people alive, lynchings, rapes, etc. And KKK had plenty of tacit support from the local white community. Often they were, under those sheets, the bankers, judges, store owners, and their philosophy got reinforcement in local churches that preached segregation and saw "miscegenation" as abomination against God's will.

US has actually never gotten rid of the Klan and its terrorising variants -- and there have been several recent shootings (including in the South Carolina church, which was mass murder, and just yesterday in Minnesota) that were Klan-propaganda inspired. But people readily see that the majority of Christians, even white Christians, in the US, are against the KKK, even if they themselves are racists of some sort. I'm puzzled why people have such a hard time grasping that ISIS claims Islam as its "truth", but the majority of Muslims recoil from what ISIS is, even if many are angry at the amount of high-tech killing the West wreaking upon innocent Muslim people the world over (I'm angry about it too).

Excellent analogy.

Indeed, excellent post Sandra, will use the anaolgy, as I hadn't thought of it myself.

It's called rhetoric - anything can be (and is) manipulated with great success, especially given a charismatic figurehead preaching to a crowd who doesn't have enough money, food, job opportunities, health care, education, housing, you-name-it.

Government, religion - all are rotten with people twisting words to get what they want. There are so many disaffected people that groups grow at warp speed - but not many of these individuals can do more than just parrot slogans.

People who do have enough of whatever they need to live a good life are much less inclined to pay attention to people spouting the word of (insert your favorite spirit guide). Unless they suffer a psychotic break or something else bad happens to them. Then they go off and start their own groups, or just try blowing up everyone else.

good point Sandra.

Since many of the bombers in Paris appear to have been former drug dealers and or users, poverty may not be an issue but the conditions that took them that way is.

The main reason people turn to dealing drugs is for the money.
Some dope fiends sell to support their habit, but they don't last very long, for one reason or another. It's very rare for a big-time drug dealer to abuse his product.

The reason the drug dealer's family, friends and neighbors will swear that he was always a nice, quiet, respectful human being who never gave anyone an ounce of trouble is because they are generally on the receiving end of lots of nice, shiny, expensive presents.

Terrorist networks grow, process and sell enormous amounts of drugs, most notably heroin and cocaine. Next time you're tempted to ingest something, you might think twice about whose side you're on.

"...people readily see that the majority of Christians, even white Christians, in the US, are against the KKK, even if they themselves are racists of some sort. I'm puzzled why people have such a hard time grasping that ISIS claims Islam as its "truth", but the majority of Muslims recoil from what ISIS is..."

Just a glance at the support levels for the KKK and ISIS shows your analogy is extremely flawed.

The fact that "a majority" in any society recoils from completely random mass murder is not particularly reassuring.

What minute percentage of Americans or Christians do you suppose actually approves of KKK death tactics? What would you think of Americans, Sandra, if KKK activities were openly supported by 10% of the population - or even 3%? What if 2/3 of Americans just couldn't decide whether the KKK is evil or not?

In Senegal (nearly 100% Muslim) a majority opposes ISIS. Big whoop. According to Pew, 11% of the country support the murderous group.

61% of Pakistanis are unsure whether they oppose ISIS. 9% are SURE they support them. That's 1,630,000 ISIS supporters.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...dain-for-isis/

Even fabulously wealthy Muslim countries that offer a good life support ISIS in alarming numbers. IN the UAE poverty is 0% but 3% of Emiratis still support the ISIS murderers (2014 poll.)

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...is-back-two-st

It's very disturbing that anyone would attempt to make support for ISIS "understandable."

Remind me the % of Germansxsupporting Hitler in 1933 ?

Why do we expect better from Pakistanis in 2015 ?

How many French support Le Pen ( father or daughter) ?

Etc.

<i>What minute percentage of Americans or Christians do you suppose actually approves of KKK death tactics?</i>

In its heyday, the KKK had a large support of the population if the photos and postcards of public lynchings are any indication. I think that we can legitimately compare then and now even when we recognize that the KKK is no longer what it is and that Germany is not what it was under Hitler.

Many people are simply terrified to do anything that might be misconstrued as opposing the groups or regimes that have been mentioned - and with good reason.

It is absolutely true that in its heyday the KKK had considerable tacit and open support in the US, and not just in the south. In fact, one of the longest lasting strongholds of the KKK was Indiana. In 1925, the governor of Indiana was a Klansman, and a good chunk of the state legislature was as well. Politicians running for office usually needed the endorsement of the Klan, not dissimilar from needing NRA endorsements today in many states. The power of the Klan in Indiana was broken when its chief "dragon" was arrested for raping and murdering a schoolteacher (she was white).

Indiana was hardly an outlier, and although the Klan slipped into the shadows in much of America following the anti-lynching laws of the 1920s, and anti-Nazi attitudes in WW2 further discredited the Klan, they were the underpinning into the White Citizens Council and other racist segregationist movements in the 50s and 60s -- and once again, it was not only wide segments of the white population that "appreciated" their vicious assaults on blacks and frequently Jews (like the murders of civil rights activists), the perpetrators were frequently people of high position within local communities -- judges, governors, mayors, preachers, newspaper owners, police.

(Also to add that it is significant that Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. largely beat the Klan and its cohorts by appealing to the white majority in America in language that was plainly and recognisably "truly Christian" and moral to the ears of most Americans, even though his tactics where Ghandian, and this was reinforced by coalitions of Christian clerics who vocally condemned racism and white supremacy as immoral. KKK and the cross-burning intimidations were seen as 'fringe' and a perversion of anything Christian (or American).

>>>What if 2/3 of Americans just couldn't decide whether the KKK is evil or not? <<<

What if 2/3 of Israelis just couldn't decide if the present Israeli government is evil or not?

Must be a wider context and history at work, and a lot of policy gone wrong along the way.

And while I am at it, I would like to point out the Americans and most Europeans seldom see pictures of the beheaded and dismembered children and wedding party attendees that are the result of Israeli gunships, American drone strikes, and other atrocities committed by US allies like Saudi Arabia, who behead and flog to death "infidels". Nor do they read page after page of newspaper stories about the innocents murdered in the Middle East, what their names were, who they were, the grief of their families. Nothing like we see following the Paris attacks. No candles and teddy bears and Facebook flags-for-a-day for them.

But people in the affected countries as neighbourhoods have seen these things and suffered these traumas, griefs and losses profoundly, and relentlessly, at the hands of the same "democracies", who residents seem not to notice anything amiss until their favourite vacation spot turns into a bloodbath, the kind of bloodbath American tax dollars has been underwriting for years, with no end in sight.

So when somebody comes along an carves out a caliphate and declares they are entitled to act to defend it with all the brutality that a Jewish state defends itself, isn't surprising that people who know an entire wedding party that was wiped out in the "war against terror" might think it's not a simple matter of choosing up sides as to who is more evil.

White Christian churches all over the country shouted and marched and distanced themselves, bringing the power of the majority to bear on the KKK thugs hiding behind the cross. Now they're nothing.

But it's 2015 now and we have random, wanton bloodshed around the planet thanks to Muslim terrorists. Wish there were a silent majority of good Muslims interested in taking down their evilest element... but alas, America's lesson on handling robed thugs with holy books is lost on Muslims. The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS - they are nearly all behind Shariah and thus share too much hatred for the West and too many values with ISIS.

Bullshit.

You Muslim apologists must be so very proud. About 13,000 killings from the combined terrorist attacks of ISIS and Boko Haram alone in 2014. And 2015 a banner year as well.

What are your numbers for the Klan, sandralist?

Maybe they are just trying to match the United States with 12,569 deaths by firearms in 2014 without even fighting for a cause.

No, Fuesganger, white Christian churches in many, many parts of the south preached a study drumbeat of bigotry and fear-mongering about miscegenation, race mixing, protecting southern womanhood -- and it wasn't until fairly late in the civil rights movement that Protestants and Catholics made themselves very visible and vocal about bringing about an end to this, and their were internal ruptures in some church organisations (like there is today about same-sex marriage), with the bigots clinging on.

Calling people "Muslim apologists" is the same bigotry as people who talk about "Jewish apologists" when criticising many of the policies of Israel. Most people do not try to make any connection between violent and repressive policies and Judaism, and if they do, right-minded people are quick to be very vocal about just how unfactual and wrong that is. And rightly so. All of us know that there is no universal agreement among Jews about the Israeli occupation and how the government behaves. No one sees anything in the Old Testament that could be construed as legitimate basis of this, even as some Israeli groups tout precisely that line. Everyone can see the difference between the religious observance of Judaism or even the simple self-identification of one being a Jew and a political agenda that only claims to be defending jewish values and peoples when it is not.

But for the bigots stewing against Muslims, no such courtesy or thoughtfulness is admissible. Probably because the anti-Muslim bigots don't actually know any Muslims, and know nothing about Islam. They feed off of anti-Muslim websites and other propaganda like the anti-Semites before them, the anti-Catholics before them, anti-Lutheran, anti-Calvanists, blah blah. It's all the same s++*, just different a++hol**.

I don't care which religion people invoke to do their psychopathic killing in pursuit of some psychopathic identity politics. I only care that people use their brains rationally to figure out how to stop them. Hard work.

For people unfamiliar with the history of the Klan, this is a pretty good short article from Global Security

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...lux-klan-2.htm

But also -- in case my point wasn't clear -- I brought up the KKK not to say that it killed as many people as ISIS or was just as scary -- but to say that even though the KKK's emblazoned its white sheets with Christian crosses and famously burned Christian crosses at its rallies, and spouted Christian phrases from the Bible, foaming at the mouth, people don't blame Christians and Christianity for the KKK. Why? Because it would so obviously stupid to do that. Apparently lots of confused people haven't figured out yet how stupid they sound making that mistake about ISIS.

Another reason is because Christianity is the faith of the majority where the KKK operated. So there were plenty of other examples of good Christianity to counterbalance the KKK abominations. The problem with the Muslim attacks in the West is that Islam is the minority religion -- so every Muslim is looked upon with suspicion for the moment by a lot of people.

Believe me, if an extremist Jewish group had carried out these attacks on the basis, say, of "these people are not respecting the Sabbath," the Jewish population, which is even a smaller minority than the Muslims, would be looked at askance as well. But if an extremist Christian group had done the same thing ("we are ridding the world of devil worshippers"), nobody would blame the Christian majority, because we all know that most Christians are not like that.

India could probably teach us some lessons about that (but not very good lessons) since every time a minority group in the area does something reprehensible, the majority group starts slaughtering them.

The problem with the Muslim attacks in the West is that Islam is the minority religion -- so every Muslim is looked upon with suspicion for the moment by a lot of people.>

And so it is I fear with many ordinary French - like again my son's family members and friends - he just said today that - he recently returned from a month in France visiting family and friends - that most it seemed had a fear of losing 'frenchness' and a general sympathy to vote perhaps for Ms Le Pen or some ilk in the next election - probably not but they are giving it thought."

Thus most of French Muslims - good hard-working people probably are suffering from the jihad actions of a very few. That to me is a sad fall-out if true and if true that many French fear they are losing 'our frenchness'.

KKK is a good analogy perhaps but most of the country viewed them as nut-cases but the above talk is sobering - now if the French psuedo-Christian majority overreacts more and more Muslim alienation will surely take place.

"The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS - they are nearly all behind Shariah and thus share too much hatred for the West and too many values with ISIS."

I struggle to know what to say, but let's try. The majority of Muslims world wide and all those I've met, worked with and holidayed with are just like you and me. The love their family, do their work and get on with everyone. Now that is true from Iran to Libya to Turkey. Within the Muslim world there are a bunch of groupings all with slightly different views just like Christians.

The number of people who think that killing people is the right way to get what you want is not really a main thing for religious people. Yes there are a few.

There are people who say they hate the west and they say it into their apple phone, check stuff on google, they use Chinese/Russian/American guns and drive Japanese/Chinese/European cars.

Bilbo,
of course the vast majority of Muslims are ok people.

And the vast majority of people saying that 'The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS' are Nazis.

In 1940 they were killing Jews, now they'd like to kill Muslims. ok, no just keep them outside their borders or put them in Guantanamo style prisons - oops sorry, camps.
They will find a lot of good (?) reasons for that and call people who disagree cowards, stupids etc.

But for some, 'Youpins, Métèques, Romanichels, Nègres' are normal people. FN, KKK, and such basterds are natural haters, and they get a field day of spreading their hatred among people full of fear.

Sandra, I really liked 99,9% of what you've been posting here...

"Sandra, I really liked 99,9% of what you've been posting here..."

I agree. Thanks for the perspective.

I'll third that.

Me too. Obviously someone has been studying history.

This idea of "Frenchness" - of "La Belle France" - is a sentimental holdover dating from the days of The Enlightenment, if not before. Many French people have a bad habit of living in the past, where everybody feels more comfortable than confronting the problems that exist in current day society.

<i>This idea of "Frenchness" - of "La Belle France" - is a sentimental holdover dating from the days of The Enlightenment,</i>

More likely a 19th or 20th century sentiment. The Enlightenment thinkers were too cosmopolitan for that.

Paris, there ain't no "of course" when people move from thinking to fear :-)

Have a great day everyone

bilbo..

Kudos to you for finding such moderate and well-mannered words in response to the claim that the majority of Muslims is only marginally less extreme than the terrorists.

My only explanation for reaching such a bizarre view of the world is that the respective poster must have no contact at all with Muslims.

Nevertheless, I read the same type of garbage in the FB comments of people I thought I knew well. And who I thought to be educated and well-informed citizens. It really hurts to see the hate and fear these people are spreading among their "friends".

Sandralist is 1000% correct about how deeply the KKK was enmeshed in many parts of the U.S. In 1928, for example, an estimated 40,000 Klansmen marched down Pennsylvania Avenue in their white sheets and pointed hats. In some cities, such as Birmingham, Alabama, the KKK formed a network of city officials, police, and corporate leaders such as U.S Steel. See the book written by the daughter of a Birmingham Klansman, Diane McWhorter, "Carry Me Home" --

From the New York Times book review, March 18, 2001: "''Carry Me Home'' is an exhaustive journey through both the segregationist and integrationist sides of Birmingham's struggle. There are few innocents in her depiction, especially on the white side, where the roots of bigotry and murder insinuate themselves into the foundation of the city's ''rule of law'' and the bedrock of its corporate power. Scouring law-enforcement reports, archives, memoirs, personal papers and adding her own interviews, McWhorter, in her first book, expertly follows the tangled threads of culpability until they reveal what she calls ''the long tradition of enmeshment between law enforcers and Klansmen,'' which included the Federal Bureau of Investigation as well as the state and city police."

"...of course the vast majority of Muslims are ok people. And the vast majority of people saying that 'The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS' are Nazis."

Whoa. So pathetic to fling that worn out pejorative around.

You might ask yourself how the Nazis got such a reputation for being Nazis. Among other things: antisemitism, religious persecution, excessive ethnic pride, and an intolerance of diversity and other ways of life. Why the exodus of nearly a million Jews in the 40s and 50s from largely Muslim countries? Yup - persecution. FYI it's illegal to practice any religion but Islam in Saudi Arabia. Religious conversion or blasphemy can get you a prison term or much worse. Such laws exist because the Muslim population supports them. Just try being gay, much less marrying one. Wanna have some pre-marital sex? Check the PEW polls - around HALF of all Muslims around the planet support the right of your own family to slit your throat if you do. Why? To preserve the honor of the family, of course.

"The majority of Muslims world wide and all those I've met, worked with and holidayed with are just like you and me. The love their family, do their work and get on with everyone. Now that is true from Iran to Libya to Turkey."

We can trust your word on the benign nature of the average Muslim, or we can look at the facts. A 2013 Pew poll of Muslims in Pakistan, Turkey, Tunisia, Jordan and Indonesia found that only 50% could muster disapproval of the TALIBAN. So if we go by the numbers, it appears likely that your vast bevy of Muslim friends might include a few folks who approve of madrassas, public stonings, bans on TV, etc. and a religious police force to ensure conformity with their mandates. Lovely people, I'm sure.

It's hard to see what part of "extreme" you find so incomprehensible.

We all WANT to have faith in human nature and in the notion that no one else could ever out-Nazi the Nazis. But do you want that so badly that you ignore the volumes of data that say you're wrong?

Fuss

Trouble is you need to understand the environment in Pakistan/Turkey?/Indonesia. I suspect in some parts of Pakistan the Taliban is an improvement on some of their local government (for instance mass rape of sisters of criminals is enforced within some parts of Pakistan) hence the Taliban would be seen as an improvement. Is that rule part of being a muslim, of course not. Do political parties/news organisations wip up tension to gain power and money (think Trump/Fox etc) or the same in the countries you mention, do the people of Pakistan like having drones hovering over their towns and weddings being blown up, I guess not and I suspect I might Knee-jerk a survey the day after my family got blown up.

Having, myself, used surveys to move people's minds and seen surveys delivered without local understanding and then reported as being clear I think you should take your "data" and question the true meaning and process of the survey and its results. The exact date, what was in the local news etc.

I too decline to use the Term Nazi about stuff, too narrow.

Cowboy, thanks.

Cowboy writes, "It really hurts to see the hate and fear these people are spreading among their 'friends'."

A full third of Germans have unfavorable views of Muslims, according to a 2014 Pew survey, a fact that may stem as much from exposure to and education about Muslims as it does from the ignorance you see behind such views. After all, Germany has been home to Muslims for many years. You now have around 5 million there, I imagine. That unfavorable views are so prevalent is surprising in a country that generally prides itself on tolerance and acceptance. FYI Spain, Poland, Greece and Italy (over 60% unfavorable) have yet dimmer views of Muslims. At 33%, German "Islamophobia" appears relatively modest.

There's a lot of information if you're curious what's really in the minds of a given segment of the population. The UK offers up lots of polls reported in English. For example... A poll taken this year indicates 24% of British Christians believe acts of violence are justified when unfavorable images of Christ are published.

(Outrageous, you say? Oh, wait - I'm wrong. That's British Muslims - and it's ANY image of Mohammed - as in the Charlie Hebdo massacre. Still outrageous though, wouldn't you say?)

It may in fact be the openly-stated beliefs of the European Muslim population itself that makes your fellow Europeans fearful and uncomfortable.

Sharing their opinions isn't spreading fear - it's spreading solid information that is truly scary; in the long run it hurts more to ignore dangerously genocidal thinking trends than it does to acknowledge them and deal with them. But that's a lesson Germans should already understand.

bilbo writes, "...I think you should take your "data" and question the true meaning and process of the survey and its results. The exact date, what was in the local news etc."

Your speculations are just that. Pew has a reputation for dealing with such variables. Anyway, let's say your speculations are accurate, and the Pew poll is wrong by 50% - and instead of half the Muslims, a full 3/4 of Muslims in those countries disapprove of the Taliban. Accordingly, 25% do NOT disapprove of the Taliban... Now bilbo, show me any poll anywhere on the planet taken at any time where 25% of believers of ANY OTHER RELIGION think any human being deserves a Taliban-like government.

Since you have experience with such polls, there must be at least some polls somewhere - even if it's only one poorly done poll - that makes polls of Muslim opinion appear humane and tolerant when compared to other religions.