Paris - Rome
 

Hi everyone,
I am a new member, I registered with this forum because I really need your advice on how I should plan my holiday in Dec 2016. My group includes my parents (age 58 and 56 with sciatica), my 3 sisters (age 26, 21 and 19), my husband and my 2 boys (age 10 and 9) and of course, me :). We plan to go from 20 Dec 16 to 2 Jan 17. The plan is 3 days in Paris and 7 days in Rome and Florence (maybe add Barcelona if we have a bit more time). (age is at the time of travel, depart from London).
Please advise:
• Travel method: Fly? Train or both? If we go by train, can we go over the Alps when travel from Paris to Rome so see this beautiful mountain covered with snow?
• What should I see in Paris?
• What should I see in Rome and Florence?
• Restaurant / Hotel recommendation (in a central location, good food, nice area and not too noisy)? My Mum works in Hilton so she can book up to 2 rooms at special rates, can I find good, reasonable priced hotels close to Hilton to book the 3rd room?
• If I have a customised tour:
o does it mean I can start the tour late – say 9am – instead of 7am - because the bus doesn’t have to go around to pick up travellers?
o Does it mean I can eat wherever / whenever I want?
o Which tour agency should I book with?
• Anything else I need to know about?
Sorry if I seem to want a lot for the tour, but my parents come from a poor background, this is their first proper holiday ever, I want to make it nice for them and for my sisters and my husband and my kids too (good food, good time, explore new places leisurely, etc.). Budget: £1500 per person
Thank you.

It's easy to go Paris to Rome by train, and inexpensive too.

Far more rewarding than 5 hours of RER trains, airport hassle, flight, airport, and airport train. Here are two good options, although there are many more.:

Option 1, the fast and cheap way...

1. Take the 14:41 TGV from Paris Gare de Lyon to Turin arriving 20:15. From €29 in 2nd class or €46 in 1st class at www.capitainetrain.com

The TGV speeds across rural France at 186mph then slows right down to meander through the mountains into Italy via Chambery and Modane.

Tip: Have lunch at the celebrated Train Bleu restaurant at the Gare de Lyon before strolling across the concourse to the waiitng TGV to Italy, see the photos and reserve a table at www.le-train-bleu.com

Tip: You can take the earlier 10:41 TGV if you wanted an evening in Turin.

2. Stay overnight in Turin and ideally have a look round next morning - a wonderful city even if you're not a fan of the 1969 Michael Caine film The Italian Job.

3. Take a high-speed Frecciarossa train from Turin Porta Susa to Rome Termini in around 4h30, trains leave regularly, prebook from €29 in standard class or from €39 in business (1st) class at www.trenitalia.com

Option 2, the ultimate scenic route...

1. Take a TGV-Lyria high-speed train from Paris Gare de Lyon to Zurich in 4h05 from €25 booked at www.capitainetrain.com. Catch connection every half hour to Chur.

You can still have lunch at the Train Bleu restaurant - www.le-train-bleu.com !

2. Overnight in Chur, a nice Swiss town.

3. Take the FABULOUS Bernina Express from Chur to Tirano, booked at www.rhb.ch it's about €70, whatever that is in Swiss Francs.

4. Take the local train every two hours Tirano to Milan Centrale, journey time 2h50, fare €11, buy at the station, no reservation necessary or possible. Check times at www.trenord.it.

5. Onwards by high-speed train Milan Centrale to Rome Termini in 2h55 from €29 pre-booked at www.trenitalia.com

If it helps, check out these two videos from my own trips on the above two routes:

Paris to Turin & Milan by TGV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B09t_WJz_mM

Milan to Zurich by Bernina Express: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5AyEe5xWkQ

Gosh, that's quite a party! welcome here anyway, I hope that we can help you to plan your trip so that you have an even greater time than you would have had without us!

First of all, you really don't need a tour or a travel agent to see Paris and Rome. as you seem to be starting from London, with the internet, booking flights, trains and hotels will be very easy and as you are only going to two places, you don't have complicated arrangements to make. And you are already thinking in the right way - do we fly or train between Paris and Rome, etc.

you can book the Eurostar from London to Paris up to 3 months in advance and you should book that as soon as you can to get the best rates. Also book the train from Paris to Rome [or Florence] as soon as you can and the flights back from Rome.

a oouple of questions - why so short a time in Paris compared to Rome? certainly you could fill a week in Rome quite easily but only 3 days in Paris may seem very rushed when you get there. and if you can get cheap rooms at the Hilton, why not book a third room there rather than scratching about for cheap rooms nearby? when you average out the cost, it probably won't be worth whatever saving you can get to have someone [who?] in a nearby hotel.

as for what to see and do, I suggest getting a few guide books out of the library, and get your lads researching on the internet what they want to see. There are few young people who aren't impressed by the Eiffel Tower and the Colosseum [or old ones come to that] so they would be good starting points.

if you organise it yourself, you don't need to worry about when the bus arrives - you just go out when you are ready and have a nice leisurely time. public transport is very easy in all those places. it is possible of course to book guides where you are going - a lot of people like to get a guide for the Vatican or for the Colosseum and forum, and with a party of your size, having private guide might be quite economical.

once you have your dates in place, the rest will become easier. and with that time available, I would drop the idea of Barcelona - save that for another trip!

There is also an overnight train from Paris to Milan and onto Venice - you can change at Milan in the morning for Florence - get adjoining private compartments and make a nice time of it - bring any food and drink you want onboard - www.thello.com is the official site.

the routing Man in Seat 61 outlines via Switzerland is neat but with a party like yours may be more a travail than travel perhaps - flying to Rome or Pisa International - near Florence - may make sense.

anyway for lots of great stuff on trains check www.seat61.com - Man in Seat 61 who posts above his commercial site; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

To go via Switzerland the easiest and quickest way would be to take a TGV from France to say Bern or and stay one night in the fabulous Jungfrau Region around Switzerland - let them all see the majestic Alpine Wonderland close up - take the train to Grindelwald for awesome views (20 minutes frm Interlaken)

then next take hop on mainline trains to Italy - not practical to do this longer route (vs Paris to Milan) in one day - would be all day and give you only fleeting glimpses of high Alps as much of the main rail route is now in tunnels under the Alps.

By my count, you have 14 days. But if you're arriving in Paris on December 20th and flying out of Rome on January 2nd, you have only 12 full days of sightseeing. Two of these days are holidays which may or may not affect your sightseeing; you'd have to check holiday hours for each sight.

Be aware that moving a group of that size, no matter how cooperative and agreeable everyone is, will take much more time than two or three people moving with purpose. Distractions, personal needs, comfort levels, etc., will challenge all efforts to stick to a schedule.

At that time of year, daylight hours are short, and weather could impact some outdoor plans, esp. in Rome.

I'll second the idea of perusing a few guidebooks to decide what you want to see. I think when you realize how many things you want to do, you'll leave Barcelona for another trip. Perhaps Switzerland too.

I would spend more time in Paris....fabulous at Christmas!

Has everyone or anyone been to Paris or Rome before?

What are your interests...I have been to Paris 6 times and have not seen it all...there is so much so knowing your interests will help you get better info. Museums, churches, architecture, food, wine, Christmas decorations, history, art....
Me...always visit St Sulpice, eat as much cheese and pain as chocolate as possible, love Impressionistic art and so therefore love d'Orsay , L'Orangerie and Musee Marmottan. Loved St Denis, as it is uncrowded and the burial place French kings. We also loved climbing the towers at Notre Dame (may not be good for sciatica).

I'd check with Ryanair too.
Either for all travels or for the way in or back.
We went into Pisa and the airport is 10 min by taxi from city. From Pisa we went to Rome, but how ?

From Pisa we went to Rome, but how ?>>

you can get a train from Pisa Centrale direct to Rome using the line that runs along the coast of the Tyrrenian sea going all the way from Genoa south to Rome. it takes a while but parts of it are quite lovely and it's all interesting.

Hello everyone,
Thank you all for your prompt and detailed advice. I honestly didn’t expect to have my questions answered so quickly. I have saved all your advice to peruse them at home with my husband.
It’s quite tricky to make all members of the group happy. My parents and hubby don’t like to walk too much, my youngest sister (19 yrs old) is not into art but fashion and food while the other (21 yrs old) is doing a degree in art restoration / curator so she loves museum and old buildings.
In Paris, I’m thinking of visit: Notre Dame church, Eiffel tower, Palace of Versailles, Louvre's, Arc de Triomphe, maybe going to a Moulin Rouge show – is it still good? Is there any other places I should see in Paris? Is this list too much for 3 day stay?
In Rome: Vatican, Colosseum, St. Paul’s Basilica & the Catacombs, Sistine chapel, Spanish steps.
In Florence: still working on this one, because I like to go to Venice/Pisa as well, therefore I’m trying to work out how much time I should be in Florence.
I know that I have 14 days in total but I planned things for 10 days only in case something happens like bad weather, service shuts down for holiday, someone in the group is not in the mood to do anything, etc.
This trip is going to cost us quite a lot of money and it took us a while to convince my Dad to go with us (he doesn't like to spend his saving money, prefer to have a saving than a good time), therefore it puts pressure on me to make everyone in the group happy, especially my Dad, in the hope I can convince him to go on holiday again in the future.
Once again, thank you all for your help.

everoake - it's not easy to make everyone happy, as lots of people here already know - and your idea to take it slowly and allow extra time for contingencies is a good one.

that said, with a group that size you will want to book all your flights, trains and hotels well in advance which won't leave a lot of wriggle room.

regarding your plans in each place, it's a good idea to make a list of the main sights you want to see, the days and times they are open and then to work out where they are on a map so you visit places that are close together at the same time, avoiding dodging backwards and forwards across a city which is very tiring.

For example, if you want to go to the Louvre, [and make sure that that is somewhere that you all REALLY want to go to] there's no point in scheduling it for a Tuesday because that's when it shuts.

http://www.louvre.fr/en/hours-admission

The Musee D'Orsay OTOH [which might be a better choice as it's where many of the best known impressionist paintings are - Manet, Monet, Renoir etc] closes Mondays.

http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/home.html?cHash=1030a57d48

Also, familiarising yourself with the local transport is a good idea - for example in Paris, the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame aren't particularly close together, but it just so happens that the Batobus that runs along the Seine links the two together, and furthermore if you carry on east past Notre Dame you come to the Jardin des Plantes which as well as having lovely gardens to walk in, has a zoo for the kids to enjoy, which could make a very good place for them to have some fun too.

http://www.zoodujardindesplantes.fr

hope some of this helps!

I think with a group as you describe, I wouldn't try too hard to keep everyone together at all times. Be together for meals and some universally popular sights (perhaps in the mornings), but let people go their own ways for a few hours to see/do what they like at the pace they want. It's nice to have shared experiences to talk about, but I think it's also fun to hear what others have found interesting. In my case, I love to hear what young people do on their travels. Their adventures don't always appeal to me, but they're usually so darn enthusiastic that I can't help but be happy for them.

I agree with Jean. It's not necessary for your whole group to stick together all day every day. Once you get familiar with the area of the hotel and public transportation, your sisters can go out on their own. Your parents and husband may want to drop back to the hotel during the day. For this reason, it's best to have a centrally located hotel convenient to the main sights. It's easy to use the metro in Paris, and you can see a lot of the Rome sites by walking. Would your father agree to the expense of taking a taxi to cut down the walking?

With so many diverse people I would stick to Paris and Rome, not add more destinations. You can do daytrips out of the 2 cities if you want to see something else. Even a daytrip to Florence from Rome; it's only 1.5 hours by train.

As much as you can, get the others to read guidebooks and research the trip on the Internet. You don't want to bear all the responsibility of herding the group around.

With only 3 days in Paris, I would not visit Versailles this trip. I have not been to Moulin Rouge...definitely not my interest.

To me Versailles is one of the must sights of Paris and is virtually in Paris - it's a fairly short RER ride away and the tour, if you book a spot in advance, takes just a few hours - could be a half day trip but a lovely whole day as the gardens and sprawling park are also major draws

I haven't been to a Moulin Rouge show since the 1970s, and I think seats for a show now are crazy over-priced. It surprises me that 6 year olds are now allowed in as the content of the show (beyond the nudity) used to be very, very adult. Maybe it's now more like a run-of-the-mill (excuse the pun) variety show. I know it gets a lot of bus tours.

Hello I'm back with the detailed plan for my trip.
Please tell me what you think of my plan and is the hotel I planned to book is a good one at good location.
Paris: arrive evening 19/12/16, hotel http://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/le-m...al;type=total&
20/12/16
09:20 My Hotel
09:30 Notre Dame
11:00 Holy Chapel
12:15 Latin Quarter
13:20 Pantheon
14:30 Luxembourg Gardens
16:45 Place de la Concorde
17:30 Champs Elysees
18:15 Arc de Triomphe
19:30 Eiffel Tower
21:05 River Cruise (could be done on 19/12/16)

21/12/16
09:30 My Hotel
09:45 Louvre Museum
12:15 Orsay Museum
14:40 Rodin Museum
16:25 Tuileries Gardens
17:25 Palais Garnier Opera House
18:30 Galeries Lafayette

22/12/16
9:00 my hotel
09:15 Pont Neuf Bridge
09:45 Cluny Museum
16:20 Sacre Coeur Basilica
11:15 Palace of Versailles
19:20 Pompidou Center

23/12/16: fly / train to Rome

Rome: arrive here from Paris on 23/12/16
hotel: http://www.booking.com/hotel/it/otel...=total;ucfs=1&
24/12/16:
9:00 Vatican garden
10:10 Vatican Museum
12:20 Vatican City
13:20 The Sistine Chapel
14:25 St. Peter's Basilica
16:00 St. Peter's Square
16:55 Castel Sant'Angelo

25/12/16:
09:00: The Pantheon
10:15 Roman Forum
12:30 The Colosseum
14:50 Trevi Fountain
15:45 Spanish Steps
16:45 Piazza Navona
17:45 Piazza di Spagna
18:45 Piazza Venezia

26/12/16: Pompeii all day

27/12/16:
09:45 Villa Borghese
10:55 Galleria Borghese
12:40 Piazza del Campidoglio
13:20 Museum of Palazzo
Venezia
15:40 Palatine Hill and Palatine Museum
17:55 Circus Maximus

Florence: 28/12/16 and 29/12/16
I don’t think I can see everything on the below list in 1 day, so which way is best: get a return train to Florence from Rome 2 times (2 days) or check out of Rome and stay in Florence 2 days 1 night - cost of train and hotel for 2 days are almost the same. I’m thinking of flying back from Rome to Heathrow.
10: 30 Gallerie degli Uffizi
12:15 Galleria dell'Accademia
13:50 Florence Cathedral
15:10 Giardino Boboli
16:30 Campanile di Giotto
19:15 Ponte Vecchio
17:55 Piazzale Michelangiolo
19:50 Piazza della Signoria
20:20 Palazzo Vecchio
21:20 Loggia dei Lanzi
22:00 Palazzo Pitti

30/12/16 – 1/1/17: London
hotel is too expensive so still looking.
Thank you very much.

Hi everoarke2015,

I don't think it's a great idea to do such detailed, specific planning; I think you will have a lot of trouble meeting these timetables.

For instance, when I was in Paris just before Christmas 2015, there were very long lines to enter Notre Dame -- I'm sure it took longer than an hour just standing in line. In addition, I'm not sure just how much of the Latin Quarter you're going to manage to see in just an hour, and I spent more like two hours in the Pantheon, not just an hour. You're also not taking into consideration the time it will take to get from one sight to the next.

It may be a better idea to list the things you want to see each day, and then try to fit in what you can **without rushing** through the things you want to see.

Have fun as you plan!

s

thank you swandav2000 for your input.

I detailed the days as a guide for my family to see what we could do/see every day but I already warned my family that they could go where they want, stay longer or shorter at 1 place, miss out other places, etc., we wont rigidly follow the plan.

I decided to buy Rome city pass and Paris city pass to skip all the queues. Do you think it will help reduce time spending standing in the line?

For kids 9 and 10 it may feel like a forced march - like in Florence to keep that timetable you'll have to be on your feet and moving fast the whole day. Most kids I know will not like that much.

sorry, everoarke, but reading this makes me want to lie down in a darkened room. you really haven't left yourselves any wriggle room at all - where is the time for your kids to run around in a playground, or for any of the adults to stop for a drink or loo stop, or even to eat? and you will need to research whether the Paris and Rome passes will work for the things you want to see - the Rome one does for the colosseum for example, but only if you use it there first or second.

Then there is the problem of short daylight hours, the kids getting tired, the adults getting tired, the sheer logistics of getting your group from one place to the next, etc. etc. etc.

and you do realise don't you that you have yourselves visiting the Colosseum on Christmas Day? I'm pretty certain that that's one of the very few days of the year that it's shut.

http://www.coopculture.it/en/the-colosseum.cfm#

[remember I suggested upthread finding out when opening hours are for the places you want to go - I can't imagine getting to the Colosseum on Christmas Day with a 9 & 10 year old and having to tell them that they can't go in because it's closed!]

I really don't want to rain on your parade but IMHO you need to go back to the drawing board and work out something far less intensive.

Note that the Sistine Chapel is INSIDE the Vatican Museums. Not sure what you mean by visiting Vatican City as a separate item.

For Florence you have a very ambitious list and not as logical as it might be based on locations--is this meant as a sequence or just a list of choices? For example, the Campanile of Giotto is next to the Duomo (Florence Cathedral). The Boboli Gardens are a disappointment in season in my opinion. In December they would be a complete waste of time.

You are going to have a nervous breakdown if you continue down this route. You won't make it past the first hour of the first day before everything goes south.

Really, give everyone a guidebook, tell them to pick 3 things in each city they really want to see/do, collate the answers, and come up with a MUCH more general plan.

And don't under any circumstances plan to go out except very occasionally in a group of 9. You will irk everyone trying to share sidewalk space with you, you won't all fit in the same café, you will not be happily received in small stores, and so forth.

I thought you deserved some good news - your Christmas Day itinerary has promise - though the Forum and the colosseum are closed, the other places are both free, and open:

09:00: long Christmas morning breakfast with children/adults opening presents
11.00 ish] out for pre-Christmas lunch walk [make sure that if this is going to be your main meal, you've got somewhere booked] taking in the Trevi Fountain, the Spanish Steps, Piazza Navona, the Piazza Venezia, and Pantheon.

2pm - lunch.

5pm - nap

8pm - evening stroll around the sights and the pretty lights.

26th or 27th December

am - The Forum, the Colosseum and the Palatine hill [all covered by the same pass/ticket - see the link I gave you - perhaps the tour of the basement and the upper storeys will be available in which case, your kids would love it]

lunch

pm - The Vittorio Emmanuele Monument, Basilica di Santa Maria in Ara coeli, Capitoline museums:

http://en.museicapitolini.org/inform...ri_e_indirizzi

all these places are close together and if one doesn't work out, it gives you other options.

26th December - Pompeii. Here's the official website:

http://www.pompeiisites.org/Sezione....idSezione=3352

note that you need to get there before 15.30 to get in, and it closes at 17.30. You need to get from your hotel to Termini station, then get the train to Naples, then go downstairs to the Circumvesuviana to get the train to Pompeii. with 9 of you, it might be easier and even cheaper to arrange a car service to take you all in a minibus.

now I need a rest.

I'm sorry - but what you have looks more like the Bataan death march than a vacation.

First of all you will have a lot of trouble fitting that all in even if everyone is completely cooperative you schedules are too tight - not leaving enough time for meals, pit stops and transit from one place to another.

Second, you really need to allow some time for everyone to go off on their own and do their own thing. Trying to herd 9 people - 2 of them kids around like this could be your life's work. And you need to allow the kids some time every day to just run around in a park and be kids.

Especially problematical is people not wanting to walk very far which can be a big issue in touring any city.

Third - you should make each of your sisters responsible for their own itinerary. Tell them what you're doing but let them do their own research and together or separately go ahead and do/see whatever they want. It will be much less stress on everyone.

When we took our DDs - 11 and 14 at the time - to London and Paris for the first time they were very involved in selecting sights/activities and restaurants and several times went off on their own to see something they really wanted (teen shopping at Covent Garden, Musee de Cluny) while DH and I went gallery hopping - of just relaxed with a drink in the afternoon.

There is NO need for the entire group to be joined at the hip - just make sure everyone has a good map of each city, a carnet of metro or whatever tickets, and knows where everyone will meet for dinner.

Also assume the 3 sisters will want to go out in the evening while you, parents and kids probably will want to head back to the hotel after dinner.

You really need to relax the reins somewhat or you could end up with a very stressed out group.

Oh, and agree that you don;t need any tours - and it looks like your budget wouldn't cover a lot of them anyway.

Bataan death march was precisely the image I was reaching for.

The whole point of Rome and Paris is the element of unplanned discovery. You walk out your door in those cities and you're entranced.

I was in Paris, Rome and Florence around 2 months ago -- in late Nov/early Dec 2015. I've been to those 3 cities more times than I can count. I'm still finding new things. Rome, in particular, is a city for strolling. It's precisely what the Romans themselves do.

There's no point, IMO, in trying to explore these cities exhaustively on a first visit. Anyway, your fellow travellers will almost certainly rebel, unless they share your penchant for clipboards and checklists.

Thank you everyone for your advise. I totally agree with you that the plan looks a bit exhausting, but believe me it's only a guide, we won't go and do things together all the time, we won't treat the plan as a to do list either.

I used the website visitacity.com to help build my plan, and it was a great tool because they showed me what time and date conflict with my choice of attraction, therefore it was a surprise for me to read your link which showed the Colosseum closes on Christmas day. I'd better check all the attraction's website to get the correct opening hours.

@annhig: I have saved the information / plan you gave me, will look at it to help edit my plan. Thank you.

regarding Florence: the list is for 2 days, but at the moment, I'm not sure if I should stay in Florence or travel from Rome to Florence by train these 2 days to explore Florence - @ellenem: I'll cross Boboli garden off my list and put Sistine Chapel inside the Vatican Museum :)

My advice (and I have done lots of trips with 6 people and swear I will never do it again after each one) is to pick 1-2 big sites a day and leave the rest unplanned.

When you get to your hotel it will take at least 30 mins for everyone to get settled for example. People will need to use the washroom, unpack and brush their teeth, lie on the bed and rest...then put their shoes back on etc...and that is just on arrival!

oh, I googled the 'Bataan death march' and the image was a bit scary.

@jamikins: I know what you meant, the joy and the pain of having holiday with a big family, but I don't mind doing it again and again because I live far away from my family and it's rare for us to be able to get together, especially now my sister are grown up and they have college, jobs commitment.

Thank you everyone for your advise. I totally agree with you that the plan looks a bit exhausting, but believe me it's only a guide, we won't go and do things together all the time, we won't treat the plan as a to do list either.>>

everoarke - thank you for taking our largely unsolicited advice in such good part. [not everyone does!]

we just want you to have a good trip!

@annhig: i know, that's why i posted my plan here so that you can share with me your experience / knowledge, which definitely helps me avoid doing silly thing like turning up at the Colosseum on Christmas day :)