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Paris Questions
Are there markets to buy things like there are in Asian cities- not food but items where you bargain with the stall owners? If so where?
Metro- I keep hearing about the distict smell of the Metro - what do people have to say about that? What about that french attitude- is that becoming less and less of an issue? I'm talking with respect to visiting Americans here. |
Make that the distinct smell of the Metro!
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I'm not aware of anyplace you can bargain. There may be places but I just don't know of them. I know in Italy there are, for example.
Yes, there are distinct metro smells but I don't know which kinds you specifically refer to. By French attitude do you mean the stereotypical attitude that is not how it is in reality? No. I never found any locals to be rude to Americans in general. There are rude French people, but that's because of their personalities not because of dislike towards Americans. I've heard that in decades past there were some bad feelings toward Americans. In any event, rude people can be found anywhere. |
French people are the most polite i've had the pleasure to know, as Francophile said, there are rude people the world over.
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Lucielou:
Have you been to Asia? If not then you may want to rethink your answer. I have been to Europe and Asia and without a doubt the Asian hospitality is head and shoulders above Europe. Now don't get me wrong we like Europe- but when it comes to hospitality- Asia is the winner by far! |
"That French attitude" is a myth perpetuated by (two kinds of) ignorant people:
1) Those who travel to France without the slightest knowledge of, or respect for, French culture and language. These people are frequently treated with the disdain they richly deserve. b) Those who are regaled by these louts upon their return to their homes with tales of French indifference and/or hostility. |
I think the last post reflects a kind of "blame the victimes" mentality. Some years ago the French government started a program to persuade people in the tourist industry and in tourist areas to be more hospitable to all nationalities of tourists, because a good chunk of the French economy depends on it.
In many countries, and Japan is a good example, a confused tourist who doesn't speak the language and who politely asks for assistance, is treated with exceptional kindness and concern. In France, the same person will have a fair chance of encountering impatience, curtness and disdain, although the majority of Parisians and French are just as courteous as you would be toward them. A lot of this has to do with the fact that tourists visiting Asia or other places have yet to wear out their welcome. But France, and especially Paris, is inundated with tourists every year. Anyway, I think you shouldn't take it personally if you find yourself dissed by a native of France, or assume it's an anti-American attitude. Just a cranky person in a culture that sets high standards for itself, and expect others to do the same (without much success). |
Oh -- and it's true that Paris, not just the Metro, has a distinct smell, and its a combination of more than one. To me, the one that sticks out most is the smell of warm sugar.
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Well, I 'negotiated' the price of two pashmina scarves in the Sunday market at Place Monge, and felt perfectly happy about bargaining with the stall owner. I long to go the the Sunday antique markets at Clignancourt, and would have absolutely no hesitation about bargaining there (as friends of mine do regularly!). I probably wouldn't try to bargain for food though.
Smell of the metro - can't say I've really noticed anything in particular, bar urine in the underground tunnels around les Halles... Although in a crowded carriage you can be distinctly aware of the aromas of sweat and garlic.... |
I think you can bargain for some things at those roving markets -- at least the cheaper ones I am sure, as I have (not intentionally, I just really didn't want the stuff that much), or stuff that isn't that great. I have at place d'Aligre market but it's got some cruddy stuff. You can at flea markets, also. None of this stuff is really worth stalking out and buying, do not expect to find priceless or worthwhile objects in some of these cheap markets. Now there are expensive antiques at the Clignancourt flea market, and I'm sure you can bargain on them, but you have to really know your business to do that, and know what things are worth.
Don't think Paris (or any part of W Europe) is like some Asian third world country, I think you have some unfortunate expectations. I think a lot of metro systems smell a little in a lot of different countries. Parisian ones are not ventilated real well, it seems, but I have never thought about the smell or categorizing it nor even thought about it much. It's a big city, I'm used to thos kinds of things. There is nothing that big a deal about it to be writing books about it or talk about it a lot. |
"Some years ago the French government started a program to persuade people in the tourist industry and in tourist areas to be more hospitable to all nationalities of tourists, because a good chunk of the French economy depends on it."
The program was to get the French to be more tolerant of visiting louts, because their economy depends on their reputation <i>whether it's deserved or not</i>. I have been in France hundreds of times since 1963, and can count the times I've been treated rudely on one hand. |
thanks ness, your view is balanced. robes, i have worked off and on in paris for about 6 years and have worked very closely with french people for over 12 years. there IS a french attitude that needs to be navigated. you need to learn how and you'll be ok. but, you do need to learn.
take Bill's point about asia. in asia, you are forgiven if you don't follow the code of the local. hospitality and the comfort of the guest is paramount. of course there are exceptions but guests are not made to feel uncomfortable if they don't know every practice of society. in france, there is much less forgiveness. "attitude" is a loaded word...call it what you want but you have to learn more rules when traveling to france than most places. and the point about being worn out by tourists is off the mark. most parts of asia where people travel are extremely well traveled. |
"There IS a french attitude that needs to be navigated."
Yes, as I said: navigating it involves knowledge of, and respect for, their culture and language. And (as an afterthought) history. |
The people who are asking questions on this board are tourists, not anthropologists. They are asking how foreigners and tourists who don't know the subtleties of French culture are treated.
The honest answer is that even if they behave in ways they consider to be polite and mannerly, they may encounter negative reactions -- and not because they've violated some very odd taboo, but really because they aren't French. If they conclude from a handful of negative expereinces that that all French people are like that, they will be making a mistake. But please let's not gaslight people into thinking that the insulting behavior exhibited toward them is rational and their own fault, when it really reflects a streak in French culture that many French themselves often find regrettable. Above all, it shouldn't stop anybody from going to France and enjoying the culture. You will meet many lovely people. |
Yes - I think all of the above comments ring true. I just love Asia because I do not have to learn the rules and people salute me, bow to me, open doors for me(that won't happen in Europe) and basically treat you like a king and isn't that part of what we are looking for in our vacations? We will be going back to Europe- so I'm not dissing Europe- its just that I wish it could be more like Asia both in hospitality and price (the dollar goes oh so much farther in Asia!)
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Bargaining is expected at flea markets and brocantes (stores and occasional street markets selling antiques and collectibles). The flea market at Porte de Clignancourt consists of several permanent markets open on weekends only (and Monday, except many stalls are not open then). There is an extremely wide range of things for sale from very high end antiques down to small items. I have a picture of my husband browsing an entire shop of vintage key rings, for example. I have found the Vernaison and Paul Bert markets there have some more affordable choices than some of the other markets. Ignore the junky stuff being sold near the metro and keep walking past the Peripherique and down rue des Rosiers to get to the actual flea market. I have bought old kitchenware, used fishing nets, colorful tins, and assorted quirky items for my home. I always ask, just as I would in a similar flea market in the U.S., is this your best price. That usually gets a little bit knocked off the asking price.
The flea market at Port de Vanves is a market of stands that are just set up on Saturday and Sunday with a much more limited selection because the shops are not permanent and the vendor only brings things to display on a single table each day. So if you are looking for something particular, it is more hit or miss. But fun to browse, and bargaining is the same as at the permanent market. I have never heard of nor noticed a particular distinctive smell in the metro that makes it different from subway systems anywhere else. |
As Christina said, metro systems do have something of a smell, but I've found it to be more of a heavy machinery smell (lubricating oil, mostly, if you've ever smelled that) than anything really offensive (although it's kind of a comforting smell for me, it might be strange for most people). In a packed car, of course it'll smell of people, but so will a packed bus anywhere, nothing to really worry about (unless Paris stores corpses in the metro or something).
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To me the London Undergound always smells damp. And the NYC subway smells like its many riders!
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"I do not have to learn the rules and people salute me, bow to me, open doors for me...and basically treat you like a king and isn't that part of what we are looking for in our vacations?"
Actually, no. I for one would be made quite uncomfortable by being saluted and bowed to. I very much enjoy learning about the culture and customs of the places I visit, and the challenge of attempting the language. My trips enrich me not only by what I've seen and done while I'm actually there, but what I've done to educate myself prior to my arrival. But then, I'm not one to lie on the beach all day, either. And that's some people's definition of paradise. Different strokes for different folks. |
robes, your views are really tired and a product of the american culture wars. why do you need to characterise people as either pro or anti-france? i understand that a lot of americans are anti-france for stupid reasons but that shouldn't stop the rest of us from discussing the issue that bill raised with reason rather than emotional knee-jerk.
i do not promote going somewhere with no knowledge of the place nor do i wish to be treated like a king when i travel somewhere. Bill, i don't think you did your argument any good with your last post. however, ness is right, regular tourists shouldn't need to take 3 years of "how to travel in france" lessons before they can go there without being made to feel like they are doing something wrong at every turn. robes, i don't understand your last post...we both agree that you need to learn the "ropes" before you go there but why should you have to? it's nice if you do but why should being treated with respect require this. in asia, being treated well is unconditional. most europeans don't bother to do this when traveling to france. do you really think danes fret about making sure they greet the shopkeeper in every shop they enter when in paris? or that germans spend hours on message boards trying to learn how not to "screw up" in france. they just go there to visit and have fun and get treated not very well...and this is why france has this reputation around europe as well....nothing to do with the war stance or freedom fries. it's ok robes, we all know you are a good soldier against all the "ignorant" views about france in your country but you can put that aside here. |
robes, your views are really tired <b>[Which one(s), specifically?]</b> and a product of the american culture wars. why do you need to characterise people as either pro or anti-france? <b>[Where did THAT come from? I never said anything like that.]</b> i understand that a lot of americans are anti-france for stupid reasons but that shouldn't stop the rest of us from discussing the issue that bill raised with reason rather than emotional knee-jerk. <b>[I speak respectfully to visiting Americans, too.]</b>
i do not promote going somewhere with no knowledge of the place nor do i wish to be treated like a king when i travel somewhere. Bill, i don't think you did your argument any good with your last post. however, ness is right, regular tourists shouldn't need to take 3 years of "how to travel in france" lessons before they can go there without being made to feel like they are doing something wrong at every turn. robes, i don't understand your last post <b>[I know.]</b>...we both agree that you need to learn the "ropes" before you go there but why should you have to? <b>[If we agree, what's your question?]</b> it's nice if you do but why should being treated with respect require this. <b>[I didn't mean to imply I thought it <i>should</i>. I said it <i>does</i>.]</b> in asia, being treated well is unconditional. <b>[I commuted to Taipei for several years, and I don't agree with you. Asia is a big place.]</b> most europeans don't bother to do this when traveling to france. <b>[I haven't interviewed most Europeans, so I can't speak with your authority on the subject.]</b> do you really think danes fret about making sure they greet the shopkeeper in every shop they enter when in paris? <b>[Yes.]</b> or that germans spend hours on message boards trying to learn how not to "screw up" in france. <b>[Well, they're <u>Germans</u>, ferchrissake.]</b> they just go there to visit and have fun and get treated not very well...and this is why france has this reputation around europe as well....nothing to do with the war stance or freedom fries. <b>[This is the first time anyone has mentioned either of those things.]</b> it's ok robes, we all know you are a good soldier against all the "ignorant" views about france in your country but you can put that aside here. <b>[I didn't raise this issue. The OP did.]</b> |
robespierre,
You seem to keep missing the point that even foreigners who possess a lot of knowledge of France (and French) experience negative responses from some French people that take one aback. And it's not political. It is a difference in attitude about how to treat strangers in your country. Were I to call my friends and ask if it was OK to bring people from another to country to dinner at their house, I wouldn't be at all surprised to have my friends ask me to please tell them if there was anything they should or shouldn't do that would help these people at ease. Up the point of people immigrating here (and that's another story), we don't expect French people to stop being French when they come here, or to drop their habits and preferences, and if I said, "I'm afraid my French friends don't speak English very well, and they're probably not prepared for how aggressive some New Yorkers can be," my American friends wouldn't begin to lecture them or me about how they don't deserve to be treated well if they can't be bothered to bone up on American culture! I travel to lots of different countries, and I always make a point of begging people's pardon if I need to talk to them or ask their help, or even if I wish to purchase something. (I even to do that in America.) Only in France have I learned to brace myself for grudging cooperation and comments on the way I talk (even after I've apologized for my basic French). How many times does it happen? Not 9 out 10. But not one out of 1,000 either. In most of the rest of the Western world, the batting average is better. When I see foreign tourists in NYC, I always think: "How do they do it?" So I'm not saying the French are inferior. I'm saying they're just as bad as we are. :-) |
As I said in the Arago thread, Paris is the center of the universe, and I could add here that French society defines the world standard for civilized behavior.
Naturally, I don't accept either of these propositions as factual, but I <u>am</u> willing to accommodate <i>their</i> belief that they are, just as I don't contradict the view of some Brits that their monarchs are different in any significant way from everyone else. Something about "When in Rome..."? |
Sure.
But thinking you're the center of the universe counts as an attitude. I don't think anybody here has recommended arguing the French out of their beliefs. I've tended to think for many years that one of the reasons the French and Americans bicker so much is that they are so much alike. We, too, think we set the standard for civilizeation (democracy, capitalism, personal freedom, pop culture). Kind of funny when we run into people who think it's actually them. |
1. Haggling over prices is not practiced in France, as a general rule.
2. The Métro doesn't have any particular smell overall, although some lines and stations have various mechanical smells (grease, electrical equipment, hot brakes during rush hour). 3. The French don't have an "attitude." The only hostility I've ever seen in France was hostility displayed by Americans. |
Bill T,
If you know little about the culture, language, and history of the countries you've visited in Asia and yet you're treated like "a king," trust me, not everyone in Asia is treated with such regard. Your ideal vacation scenario sounds like a Madame Butterfly opera -- the orient bowing down at your big Western feet. (no doubt, wearing shoes that you've forgotten to take off and are stomping around in peoples' homes...) |
fishee,
I don't take BillT's remarks as literal. But the graciousness of Japan to visitors, for instance, is outstanding, and I don't mean at 5 star hotels. Americans often treat guests better than they do their own families, so there is nothing new there. I think it's silly to deny different cultures have differing attitudes toward tourists and foreigners. And I think it's especially silly to try to make up insults to hurl at people who talk about the differences for the benefit of people planning to go to those countries. |
"And I think it's especially silly to try to make up insults to hurl at people who talk about the differences for the benefit of people planning to go to those countries."
I don't know who is hurling insults here. People who say there are ignorant Americans? Or people who call others' comments "silly?" |
"I just love Asia because I do not have to learn the rules and people salute me, bow to me, open doors for me(that won't happen in Europe) and basically treat you like a king and isn't that part of what we are looking for in our vacations?"
If you want to be an apologist for these kinds of remarks, knock yourself out. Many people of Asian descent, myself included, find this kind of attitude to be insulting. But I guess that makes us French... |
I will just add that there are no such discussions about "attitude" when visiting Germany, Austria, Switzerland,.... so I think there is some truth about the French "attitude".
BYW the French do not set the standards for civilization |
Just got back from Paris yesterday. My daughter and I went for a mini vacation. We found most people to be more aloof than here (we are from the south) and are SO GLAD TO BE BACK HOME.
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Have you ever been to New York? Taipei? I don't think Parisians are any more aloof than big-city dwellers anywhere else.
Did you get out into the provinces at all? What is the population where you live? |
We are from Memphis- home of Elvis, B.B. King, Beale Street and the Blues. People here are very friendly and will go out of their way to help.
Been to NYC many times and love it! People there have always been very nice. One of our favorite places to visit in the US, along with San Francisco. Paris just was not my cup of tea. |
ru - Guy18 gave you 10 excellent suggestions for your trip when you asked on a previous post. How many of them did you do?
1. Have lunch at Laduree tea room on the Rue Royale. 2. Have lunch at Angelina's, facing the Tuileries Gardens. 2. Have dinner at Paris Dakar, a wonderful Senegalese restaurant north of the Pompidou Center (take a Taxi). 3. Go to the Musee Jacquemart Andre to see a real 19th century Parisian townhouse (your daughter will love the giftshop). 4. Go to the Musee D'Orsay for a wonderful collection of French impressionism. 5. Go to the Louvre--but choose in advance what gallery or two you want to see and call it a day. You will exhaust yourself trying to see everything, and 3 days wouldn't be enough time anyway. Wonderful shops are in the "lower regions." 6. If antiques interest you (as they do me), browse the Clignancourt antiques market(watch your purse), or, better yet, if you're there on a weekend, do the Port de Vanves antiques market. It's smaller and more manageable. 7. Stroll the Luxembourg Gardens and wander over to the St. Sulpice church. 8. Stroll the Tuileries Gardens (perhaps between the Louvre and Angelinas!) 9. See Notre Dame and then stroll on the Isle St. Louis with your ice cream cone from Berthillon (like nothing you've ever tasted!) 10. Find a place on the Rue Mouffetard for an authentic, inexpensive Parisian meal. (There's a great place for quiche, but can't remember the name. I'll bet you can find it.) |
Note- in the US people in the South tend to be more hospitable than in the Northeast or in California. I have lived on both coasts and now in Texas and so I can attest that there is a big difference is hospitality.
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