Palenque

BBC World carried an interesting story about a group of Parisians who have started an insurance scheme to pay the fines of Paris Metro fare dodgers - who hop over the turnstiles, scoot in behind someone else, etc. and then face fines of up to 72 euro if caught by controllers who periodically go thru metro cars asking everyone for proof of having paid their fares.

Members must pay 5-7 euros a month for the insurance, which in turn if the miscreants are nabbed will pay their fines.

And the RATP which runs the metro says that ticketless travelers cost the system some 80 million euro a year - far more than the amount of fines collected.

The group, "mutuelles des fraudeurs" says that "like education and health, we believe that public transport should be . . . free," "

Moi aussi - public transports like the Paris metro should be free - just like streets in Paris are built with public funds.

And by being free there could be immense savings in getting rid of ticket windows, fare controllers, turnstiles, NAVIGO pass costs, etc. This would seem to be a huge savings and of course more people would ride, reducing Paris' notorious air pollution perhaps.

Free the metro - make the metro free - what do you think?.

Bitter

It won't be free. Someone has to pay for it. The question is how that cost is allocated.

Palenque

taxpayers will pay for it just like sidewalks and streets in Paris

Christina

I heard about those idiots on the radio the other day. Paris metro is a bargain compared to many city's standards.

Palenque

Christina - i do not endorse this group's methods but i think the idea that public transports, like sidewalks and streets, etc. should be a free public service

Do you think that everytime you walk down a sidewalk you should be charged a user's fee for maintenance, etc.

And again i do not like this group's tactics simply because right now others will have to pay more as a result but i do endorse their agenda of making public transports free to all - just like streets and sidewalks and street lamps, etc.

Therese

I agree, Palenque, public transit should be free (and not just in Paris). Everybody benefits: the people who use it, and the people who don't, by way of less pollution and fewer people/cars on the roads. Yes, taxes would pay for it, but as you point out taxes also pay for highways.

Hey, about making transit free and charging extra to drive a car, using that fee to offset the expense of running public transit?

Palenque

Hey, about making transit free and charging extra to drive a car, using that fee to offset the expense of running public transit?>

Europe does this with its huge tax on gas at the pump and thus they have sophisticated transport systems like the Paris metro/RER - to me amongst the finest in the world i've experienced in terms of number of stations - frequency of service, etc.

And thus like Christina says the metro is a bargain compared to similar systems - esp those in the U.S.

Bitter

Again, it wouldn't be "free for all." The cost would just be allocated among the users and non-users.

So if we aren't really making it free, what is the compelling reason to make the change?

As a visitor, changing the funding structure might benefit me (at a cost to the French, if part of their taxes), but I don't think that is fair.

Palenque

As a visitor, changing the funding structure might benefit me (at a cost to the French, if part of their taxes), but I don't think that is fair>

do you think it fair you pay a VAT of about 20% on nearly every purchase in France? moneys that are used i presume to fund things like metros.

Pvoyageuse

do you think it fair you pay a VAT of about 20% on nearly every purchase in France? moneys that are used i presume to fund things like metros.

As fair as paying a sales tax in the US ......

Fashionista

This is lala land. We are in the middle of an economic crisis with government debt exceeding 60% of GDP in 11 European countries.

France owes 1,489,025,000,000 Euros. They cant afford to give anything away.

Palenque

Sounds like France oughta raise the VAT to about 100% to pay for it all

Pvoy - i was only using the VAT thing to counteract Bitter's statement:

<As a visitor, changing the funding structure might benefit me (at a cost to the French, if part of their taxes), but I don't think that is fair.>

and to illustrate that as a visitor you do indeed pay taxes in France. And i am not against that either.

Bitter

"Do you think it fair you pay a VAT of about 20% on nearly every purchase in France? moneys that are used i presume to fund things like metros."

Yes. If there were no tickets, then the VAT (or some other tax) would go up. So, maybe I wouldn't be ahead. Anyway, you can't push one thing down without the other going up.

So what's the compelling reasong for eliminating tickets?

Palenque

So what's the compelling reasong for eliminating tickets?>

like i said above

many more people would use the metro rather than drive - less money need be spent on roads - more folk riding the RER in means much less smog in a city plagued by smog - i may add a congestion fee like in London for any cars entering inside the Peripherique Ring Road too to discourage cars entering the city center.

all the cost of collecting fares and security gates to prevent fair dodgers would be eliminated - a huge savings in personnel and infrastructre and administrative costs - savings that would go into making the system better.

even at current reasonable fares the poorer elements can find it pricey to ride as well -

and public transport IMO is a public service just like sidewalks and streets and those are free, right?

Bitter

Pal: Sidewalks aren't free. Just because there isn't a ticket to use them doesn't mean they are free. They are paid for out of some tax somewhere.

To suggest paying for subways would decrease traffic is a bit of a stretch. Those that can afford to drive in Paris, will not be inclined to change their actions. Those that take the metro, are not inclined to drive.....

annesherrod

I think it is an interesting question you pose?

Several lines closed down in my city and hospital workers, teachers, students and white and blue collar workers were out of luck. I know that is a little different scenario than what you are talking about but it made me think.

I know of a woman who no longer owns an operable car and she cant afford public transportation, so she cannot go on interviews with out asking family/friends which becomes quite taxing after awhile.
If she had free public transportation I wonder if she would have that job or at least time away to go to the free zoo, free museums, free concerts ,etc offered in this city so she had some quality of life?

kerouac

<i>Do you think that everytime you walk down a sidewalk you should be charged a user's fee for maintenance, etc.<i>

Part of my property tax is for sidewalk maintenance, and my building comes to a point on a square, so we are paying for 3 different sidewalks -- therefore 200% more than most buildings.

Perhaps we should indeed charge a toll.

Bitter

I think the greatest impact would be on shorter distance use. If no ticket was required, people would use it for shorter jaunts.

wizardofaus

If the metro was free it would become even more crowded, and there would be no money for improvements. Any "free" service gets abused because people no longer see it as having any monetary value.

Nothing will ever be truly free while people have to be paid wages.

ira

>a group of Parisians who have started an insurance scheme to pay the fines of Paris Metro fare dodgers<

Isn't capitalism wonderful.

BTW. pal, "there is no such thing as a free lunch".