Voyager2006

If you do decide to use some sort of "vguided" services in Paris I can very highly recommend Elaine's previously mentioned ContextParis. These people are outstanding and I agree, pricey, but IMO worth every penny. They have excellent guides and can tailor any visit to your exact, and most out-of-the-ordinary needs.

I hope this works out for all concerned no matter what you decide.

I also agree that organized tours do offer some advantages but they will never feel as personal as having someone doing it "just for you."

ira

Hi P,

>...Mom passed away this past summer after a long illness, and Dad wants to go to Paris to recapture some memories ...<

>Dad doesn't want to go to Paris on his own, even with a tour. He suggested we three go together because we all love Paris, and he'll pay for everything. <

>...we'd gladly pay our own way to have a trip we could enjoy much more than a tour.<

I am trying to say this as politely as I can:

Your father has recently lost his wife. Your father would like to go to Paris to (a) relive memories of his dear wife and (b) to visit Paris with his children before he dies.

You and your wife are thinking only of yourselves.

If you were my kids, I would disinherit you.

janisj

ira: That is what I was thinking when I posted "IMHO it would be more important to let Dad treat and have the trip of his dreams than have my own way." But maybe I was a bit too subtle (not usually my strong suit). You got right to the point.

It is only one European/Paris trip of many the OP will probably take but likely the last one for Dad.

HowardR

Talk about insensitivity....Ira, if you were my father, I could care less about being disinherited!

BTilke

Ira is being WAY too harsh. If the OP(s) were ONLY thinking of themselves, they wouldn't even be considering Dad's unappealing option. And "Dad" has long taken the attitude of his way or no way and refused to acknowledge that his kids are not, in fact, real children but adults with more travel experience than he has--in fact, it sounds like his "kids" have been quite accommodating over the years.
The OP is looking for a compromise. It's not just a question of who's paying. Ira, in an older post from a woman who was thinking of going abroad for a year, you said mom should just go ahead and make the decision, regardless of the opinions of her adolescent children (even though she would be pulling them out of school for a year and plunking them into a school where they didn't even know the language that well). Are you always of the view that the oldest person in the family gets to make the final decision and everyone else's opinion is just fluff? And that dissension is selfish treachery?

My father passed away last year and my brother and I have been trying to help Mom with the inevitable loneliness. He has been spending all his vacation days visiting her; I'm leaving my husband home alone at Christmas while I spend the holiday with Mom in Florida (last year, she spent it with us). But we are blessed in that my mother doesn't use her grief as a weapon to manipulate or bully (even subconsciously) the family into doing everything her way or no way.

That said, this Dad sounds like an old dog who is too set in his ways to accept that adult children might actually know a thing or two. Present the options. Ask him what specifically he thinks your options are missing that a tour would provide (if this were a multi-destination trip, I could see the argument for a tour, but this is a one-stop journey). Ask if there is ANYTHING you could suggest that would make him reconsider.
As for tour guides, some are good, some are mediocre and some are just plain awful, pushing you towards mediocre-tourist oriented restaurants and shops where they get a kickback.
If Dad sticks to his "my way or the highway" view, then you'll probably have to go along in the interest of family peace. But do NOT think of yourselves are horrible, selfish, and insensitive just for suggesting a different option.

BTilke

If I can make a suggestion that might help convince your father to try a different approach:

Shelve the whole tour v. DIY debate for a while. Ask Dad to share with you his favorite memories of his trip to Paris with his wife--what were their favorite views, sights, cafes, restaurants. Does he have any pictures from the trip of his favorite bits? Scan them into your computer or make a note of them.
THEN, contact one of the specialist tour guides suggested here and ask if he/she could do a custom day tour focusing on Dad's favorites, about what it was like then, what's it like now, how and why it's changed or stayed the same. Someone who would listen to your Dad's stories with an interested or at least sympathetic ear.

You could then go back to Dad and say, hey, we found a day tour guide who's really interested in your past trip and knows a lot about that sight, restaurant, cafe, etc. Explain that the guide would be really enjoy in spending a day (or days) with him. Of course, you and your wife would come along. Your Dad would get to relive his favorite memories a lot better this way than with a group tour guide who has to attend the needs/wishes/reflections of 30 other people.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

yipper

Hi,
My vote is to let Dad have his trip. This is such a non problem. My son is in Baghdad patrolling the airport road and their neighborhoods. He is the gunner on a humvee. My son is 32 married with a career just starting. Sitting on a bus seeing Paris is a breeze. It will make Dad happy and you will fulfill his dream. After this trip you can travel the way yu wish with or without Dad.

donco

Gracious. So many people, so many opinions.
DH and I used citirama (spelling?) for some arranged tours once we got to Paris. They went to lots of places in an out of the city. Although they weren't the cheapest way to go, it was nice to have someone else make all of the arrangements. We used them for a day trip to chateaux, a night tour of Paris with dinner at Eiffel Tower, and a day trip to Brugges. Why don't you sit down with your Dad and really hammer out what you want to see (and re-see). Book tours where you all agree and figure out a way to persuade him that your own pace would make sense every once in a while now that you are all older and wiser. Did your dad go to the Orangerie on his honeymoon? All of those Impressionist paintings are now at the Musee D'Orsay I do believe. If he wants to see those again, a tour might be too rushed. Having enough time to savor his favorite spots could be reason to not tour. On the other hand, if they went to Eiffel Tower, a tour means less waiting in line. Please report about this trip when you return!

ira

My dear BT,

>...Are you always of the view that the oldest person in the family gets to make the final decision ...<

I do believe that the circumstances are different.

parisnow

Am I the only one that can see the obvious here. Since the "kids" are a "couple" in "Paris", did you ever stop to think that "Dad" may not want to be a third wheel the entire time during the trip. He probably wants a tour so that he can socialize with others and give the two of you some alone time in PARIS. But he still wants his "family" with him on this trip because when the trip is over and he is "NOW SITTING ALONE AT NIGHT" not only is he remembering his trip to Paris years ago with his wife but he is remembering the new memories of the trip with his family.
I'm with IRA on this one. Sounds like "dad" is thinking more about the "kids" than they are of him. Dad is being polite and is trying to tell you "I love you but I don't want to spend every waking moment with you on this trip. No, I don't want to do the local city day guides because I will still be with you every waking minute!" "Give me a tour so I can socialize, make new friends, and go off with them when I feel like it." Having said that: I am a DIY. Grab a railpass and disappear. In fact, I love to travel alone. But when my mother travels with me we take a tour. And it has never been a miserable experience. Having been in your shoes, I think the best compromise is going to be a "City Breaks" tour from one of the tour companies. And I also highly recommend that you do one of the more leisurely tours. Most of the brochures have scales. The leisurely ones give you more independent time.

TobieT

Hi Paul,
I'd also suggest doing the tour with your father in law, helping him relive some memories. It seems to me that whatever you try to plan yourself in terms of accomodations and tours, they will never pass muster with him.

After a week together, bid him a warm adieu, put him on the plane home, and you and your wife take a few extra days to unwind at a chateau in the countryside before going home.

Is that a possibility?

Caldremr

Seems the apples here don't fall far from the tree....Everyone is right in this family!....and yes, they are...

I can understand exactly where your Dad is coming from....I lost my husband sixteen months ago and went to Paris last May alone to revisit some of our best memories...It was special but also very lonely..I am a strong woman but still, lighting that candle for him at Notre Dame was just another reminder of the fact that he is gone...forever...
Your Dad has offered a gift...Accept it graciously...You may never know how much he will appreciate it and love you for it...
I have taken tours and DIY'd...I do not believe one is necessarily better than the other..
How long is this tour?..three days or three weeks?...Most are only a few days to a week?...Why not go along with his tour and then stay behind to have your cake in an apartment since you can afford it...If he wants to stay and will go along with your DIY plans, then do that,too...Or put him on the plane back to the states alone with someone from the family to meet him at the airport....
My mother and I took a Globus tour of the British Isles one time that was a house party on wheels...Your Dad recognizes that there'll be other people on the tour with whom to socialize and that is great...These tours are not necessarily superficial...But DIY-er's who have never done one with tour guides that are very educated about the sites you are touring will dismiss them...Don't knock them til you've tried them...

This will be an act of love on your part which will be a greater gift to yourself, believe it or not, than it is to your Dad, for it will allow you the blessing of giving to a grieving and lonely old man the pleasure of his memories...God Bless and Bon Voyage!

pconte

More thanks for the helpful suggestions!

I suspected my post might create a few criticisms of us as selfish, and we take no offense. But be aware there's _lots_ more to the family history than would be appropriate to post, and there are more considerations than whether or not we can "survive" a standard tour.

Both of us have spent a _lot_ of time with ill and grieving parents, and we've learned that you can't shape your parents' (or kids') views of the world in your own model.

Still, we appreciate the intent behind the reminders that our time with our parents' is limited.

We're feeling quite enthused about some of the options people have suggested.

Just as a BTW, I don't think Dad is concerned about being a "third wheel" -- he's made clear he doesn't like the idea of us doing any activities on our own leaving him "solo", even with a group of people. But I do think having _additional_ people around for significant amounts of time is a probably an important factor, as a few people pointed out. He's generally most comfortable with social interactions that are pleasantries and, for example, is almost impossible to get to talk about what's going on inside, like how he's feeling with Mom gone.

To Yipper: You're right that this is a "non problem" compared to what your son is facing. I sincerely hope he remains safe and is home soon.

Life has to be lived at many levels, and this particular "challenge" is way down at a lower level on our own list, too. But, we'd like to make the most of an opportunity to share a good travel experience with one of our parents, and this forum was a good place to seek advice.

As I said, we've appreciated the response.

-- Paul

BTilke

Good luck and enjoy your trip however it unfolds. Your posts clearly indicate you are NOT thinking only of yourselves. I hope this Dad appreciates you and that HE accepts graciously your willingness to in the end do things the way he wants even if his trip plan is not at all what you would choose. (IMHO, his offer is less a true "gift" than a bribe with strings attached).

yipper

Hi,
Sorry to post such a downer comment. Just feeling sorry for myself. Hopefully all will work out and you will have an interesting and plesant trip.

yipper

degas

Sorry, I'm with ira on this one. The more you post, the more you reveal a much deeper problem in this relationship. Just do it his way and move on.

elaine

I disagree.
Parents deserve respect, but so do adult children. However mournful Dad may be, he may have had a lifetime of getting his own way (that's how I read it, anyway) and there is no requirement that just because he's willing to foot the bill, that the 'kids' have to do everything his way. I think his daughter gets to decide whether this trip experience will enhance their relationship, or ruin it forever.
And, there's always looking into Elderhostel or some program where he can go with a tour group of his own age.
He may even meet someone special.

LadyOLeisure

You'll have to work it out with him -- maybe he feels on a tour, he'll have people he can spend some time with to give you two some privacy once in a while? Maybe he really would rather have his own hotel room with his own bath, too. This is probably a case where the more you talk to each other, the clearer you will understand each other. Does he really know how much you want to plan this trip?

Hey, yipper, I've been where you are, it is the most frustrating and terrifying time. My son did two tours of duty with the Marines in Iraq. Believe it or not, travel helped us cope, and some of our Fodorite friends were some of the best supporters we had through those times.

Good luck to both of you!

janisj

pconte doesn't say how old Dad is - but I assume he is not a spring chicken. No amount of "we're right" will change him or his personality now. Missed that chance decades ago. So as I see it - go w/ him on his terms or don't go. Simple as that. There comes a point where one has to say - Dad is a pain but let's let him have his way - next year we can do OUR way.

In 10 years when he is gone it would be a shame to look back and regret not bending and taken this trip w/ him.

Everyone who is saying &quot;stick to your guns&quot; - where will that get you? You will have the trip of <b>YOUR</b> dreams and a Dad who is unhappy and maybe heartbroken. Let him treat you for Pete's sake . . . . . .

jules4je7

I rarely disagree with Ira, but I have to on this one, at the risk of being disinherited.

I'm sensitive to the fact that your Mom just died, and it's probably a tough time to be planning a trip -- perhaps for your Dad it's something of a way to not only see a place he's always wanted to go back to, but that he can also control a bit of his life by getting out and going on an adventure. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- it just makes planning a bit more tricky since you're dealing with someone who's probably going through a variety of feelings right now.

I'm wondering if you could sign up for a tour for the first half of the trip even if it's just a few days long -- get in the big stuff -- then stay over a few extra days after that, at your own expense, and let your Dad get the part of the tour in that he wants, while you enjoy some for you.

In my opinion, Paris is a long way to go and vacation time is very precious. Yes, in the name of family peace you can go along and do it Dad's way, but it doesn't sound like he's really dug in, just trying to find an easy way to see the sights without having to work too hard. Perhaps you can show him how much you know about getting around and reiterate that this is actually the most relaxing way to go to be able to spend time at the sights he wants to see.

My worst fear for him would be going to see a big sight, wanting to sit and reflect on his memories, while a tour bus operator tells him he's got 5 minutes to get on the bus. It just doesn't seem very good for someone who might need a little extra time to really soak in what he's seeing and let the memories come.

I'm sorry for your Mom's loss. I remember when I lost my Dad many years ago that first couple of years is tough, whether you're the surviving spouse or the one trying to help the surviving parent get through it.

I'd suggest continuing to talk it over with your wife and get advice from other people wherever you can get it, but do what's right for you and your family, don't let the Fodorites rip on you too hard. We're a harsh bunch in places, but not all the time.

Jules