Yes the French are very non-violent. That is why so many British and American soldiers have lost their lives in France. Of course the French do like to harbor murders such as Ira Einhorn. Also, your government has no problem with murdering Green Peace volunteers (remember the Rainbow Warrior?). <BR> <BR>America has plenty of Hispanic citizens. My state of Colorado has a very extensive Hispanic heritage. Yes, we do attempt to control our border, but we accept Hispanics that were born in the US as citizens. No one is trying to expell them, as your people are so zealously trying to expell Algerians that have literally spent their entire lives in France. Who are you to determine whether or not they "have any business there?" Does your "proud" French heritage make you superior to them? <BR> <BR>The US does have a high murder rate, but it is very location dependent. My middle-class suburb has not had a single murder in nearly a decade. As recently reported in the Economist, one is much more likely to be raped, robbed, or physically assaulted in western Europe than in the US. So, please, stay home and keep your violent ways to yourself.

Yo Mark - I agree w/ you! Love-Hate is the best way to describe my relationship w/ NYC. It's a great place to live, but every once in a while, I gotta hop on a big ol' jet plane and say au revoir to this place. <BR> <BR>I love Paris, well all of Europe, with it's wealth of history and fabulous cathedrals (although as I learned on my first trip, after 20 of them, they all start to look the same!) Paris is one of my favourite cities and while I don't speak the language fluently, I do make an attempt. :) Hopefully I'll never refer to myself as a jellyfish! Now confusing horse/hair is a different story! :P <BR> <BR>I think in general we tend to romanticise places we visit since we only see a small piece of the big picture. Living/working in another city (Paris or otherwise) would probably be a different story than a quick vacation. :) <BR> <BR>

Ah Monsieur, <BR> <BR>You are truly ignorant of France and French laws. We do not abide by the British Common Law that you "formerly British colony lackees" follow. Our laws do not grant automatic citizenship to anyone who just happen to be bornt in France. Maybe that is why our society is not tinted with "uncivilized" tendencies as your society is. <BR> <BR>The Rainbow people are people with "too much to eat and nothing to do." They profess they love nature, I wonder if they all are Vegetarians and they do not have modern conveniences, including electricity and gas, in their houses. They want to save this and save that, but it is their own ignorance of civilization and progress that should be saved! <BR> <BR>I have no intention of visiting your country. I will have to buy and wear a set Givenchy designer body armour if I come to visit your country. Not worth it! <BR> <BR>Do not count on your neighborhood for being safe from the prevalent violence in your country. Look around, you may be the next target for burglary, rape, drive-by shooting.... <BR> <BR>A set of Givenchy body armour is 250.091 FRF. Can you afford it? <BR> <BR>Bye-bye, I hope you live long and "prosper?" <BR> <BR>GA <BR>Paris

Hey NYCS - another great reason for living here - Europe's only a 6 hour flight away. There are times I wish to see the sun set over the ocean instead of New Jersey (I grew up on the west coast of Florida) - but I couldn't imagine adding another 7 hours to my flying.

Georgio, <BR> <BR>As I already stated, rape and burglary/robbery are more common in Europe than in the US. <BR> <BR>I am no greater admirer of Green Peace than you are. However, being from a civilized nation, I do not believe that it is acceptable to murder someone simply because you disagree with them. <BR> <BR>If the French believe that the racial heterogeneity of the US makes it an uncivilized and "tainted" nation, than that says more about you and your fellow citizens than it does about the US - namely, that you're a bunch of bigoted inbreds. <BR> <BR>At least Americans have enough sense to know that Einhorn belongs in prison.

Georgio et Steve: vous faites une belle paire de méduses !

Sam's obviously a troll, and probably under 18. I find Steve Mueller's response the most telling; he seems to respond whenever possible with a self-promoting diatribe to show his vast knowledge of politics and statistics. <BR> <BR>Does anyone remember any travel advice from Steve?

Travel advice from Steve ? sure, stay away from France and the French !

ughIHate, <BR> <BR>Thank you for the compliment. But my knowledge only appears vast in contrast to your own. At least I have enough conviction in what I say to use my own name. Also, just because you don't like what someone says doesn't automatically make it a troll. <BR> <BR>Unlike Georgio, I don't have the gall to speak of tolerance and equality in one post and then follow that with disparaging comments about Algerians and uncivilized racial tainting. It's interesting that I have not seen a post by anyone from France (or anywhere else in Europe for that matter) disputing this opinion. In the US, racial purity is only promoted by fringe elements of society. <BR> <BR>I do think that Paris is overrated, but I have never encouraged someone not to go there. I have only advised them that, if they do, be prepared for a disorganized society (e.g., Sam's baggage handler strike). By the way, I do offer a fair amount of travel advice, particularly in the US forum.

So, Steve, <BR> <BR>If USA is so racially tolerant, why did and do talented African-American performaners prefer to live in Paris? <BR> <BR>You are obviously white and who have not been discriminated on the job, on the street, in the restaurant, etc. because of your skin color and looks. Turn your self dark and come and live in East L.A. You will know what it is like to be an African American or a Mexican. <BR> <BR>Don't speak of racial tolerance until you are personally being impacted by it. <BR> <BR>Jardina <BR>East L.A.

Jardina, <BR> <BR>I didn't experience World War II, but that doesn't keep from deciding that Hitler was evil. Nor do I have to be African-American to know that the attitude expressed above toward Parisians of Algerian descent is bigoted. <BR> <BR>From the perspective of my cozy middle-class (and racially-mixed) suburb, I do believe that the US is one of the most racially tolerant nations. I defy anyone to identify another country that has a greater mix of Caucasians, African-Americans, Hispanics and Asians. <BR> <BR>With the exception of Josephine Baker, please name a single globally-known African-American artist that has emigrated to France. I can name hundreds of talented African-American performers that live in the US. <BR> <BR>The grass may seem greener in the next pasture, but I hope that you don't decide that it's in your best interest to move to Paris for the reasons that you have stated. If you do, I hope that you are never mistaken for an Algerian.

Louis Armstrong had a taped/filmed performance in France long before he was allowed that privilege in the US.

Before there was motown and hip-hop, many black artists did time in Europe before coming back to the US and fame. You've got to be kidding me, artists have been migrating to Paris for centuries, though they weren't always people of color. Paris is a refuge for the artistically diverse and politically different with no preference to color.

I have been to Paris three times and I think it is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. I can't wait to return. I am a world traveler. I have never been treated rudely by anyone in all of France. I speak a little french, far from fluently, and am always answered in french. I believe if you are polite to people they will respond the same way. The french are very polite people and have always been very helpful when we have been lost. Perhaps the people who have had bad experiences go with a chip in their shoulder. A smile always is better than a frown.

OK, Josephine Baker, Louis Armstrong. This list is getting pretty long.

Mr. Mueller, <BR> <BR>Please do not patronize us Jews by saying that you know Hitler was evil and that you did not have to live during WWII to be able to say that. <BR> <BR>Only the 6 million Jews who died under Hitler knows the pains. You should experience bigotry in the US for once to know how Jardina feels like. Even though we Jews appear white, we are still being discriminated in this country. Why do you think every year there are more American Jews leaving for Israel? <BR> <BR>So stop patronizing the oppressed and the discriminated, until you know what it is like first-hand! <BR> <BR>Yehudi <BR>NYC

First of all this person is a troll... a very successful troll who knows how to rile up this board.... by responding we are letting the troll "win" and yes, I am aware that this very response falls under that umbrella. Also I am kind of curious about Yehundi's post.... does that mean that every one who is not a Holocaust survivor should assume that Hitlar was NOT evil because they weren't direct victims of his crime???? Does that mean that when the last HOlocaust survivor passes away, all of this history books can say Hitler was ok because no one directly effected by him will still be living??? I am confused... and I am sorry, but despite the fact that I've never been a victem of the KKK or Hitler or Skin heads or the JDL or any miltant hate group... I reserve the right to believe they are ALL evil!!!!!

Oh, and BTW, Hitler killed a lot of people who weren't Jews as well... oh only a bunch of artists, or French Patriots, or liberals... gay people... disabled people... mentally retarded people.. you name it if it weren't aryan he would kill it... I don't believe that only Jews should be able to say that Hitler was evil.

Is this some sort of world record for people responding to a troll ???

Yahudi, <BR> <BR>For someone who invokes the memory of persecuted ancestors to make an irrelevant point, you are curiously silent about the point that initially angered so many people - the government-sponsored persecution of North Africans in France. But of course the fact that Louis Armstrong visited France once proves that the French are too noble for bigotry. <BR> <BR>According to your logic, since you obviously didn't die during WWII, you are no more qualified to condemn the Third Reich than I am. <BR> <BR>Many Americans, including my father, fought in WWII and therefore played a small role in bringing that nightmare to an end. Can you make a similar claim? Who are you to invoke the victims of the holocaust to promote your own piousness? Do you believe that because you are a descendant of a persecuted group that you can't be a bigot? I suspect you do. <BR> <BR>I know that the KKK and Louis Farakhan are devotely anti-Semitic. But if, as you apparently believe, the majority of Americans feel the same, please explain why the US gives more foreign aid to Isreal than any other country.

I am not pretending France is a racial paradise as it is not, but here are some well-known African-Americans who moved to Paris: Langston Hughes, Richard Wright, James Baldwin, Sidney Bechet, Richard Wright, Chester Himes, Lois Jones, Edward Clark, Harold Cousins, Bud Powell, Melvin Van Peebles, Benny Carter, Bud Powell, not to mention Tina Turner (okay, she is down on the Cote d'Azur). Also, Duke Ellington and Quincy Jones lived there a while, although not as long as these others. Also, I have seen the original Dutch report on crime in various countries and it does not say that violent crime rates are higher in Western Europe; I don't know what the Economist said, but either they are wrong or you are remembering wrong. That is a British publication, and England did come up as higher than US on two violent crime rates (assault and barely roberry), but it was lower on sexual assaults. Most Western Eur. countries were lower than US on robbery and assault, the "sexual offenses" rate(not sure how that was defined) was higher than US in many W Eur countries, surprisingly, although it was very low in France. Actually, the rates in France were among the lowest of all countries on all these crime measures. There was no homicide rate to compare as the methodology involved asking people personally their experience with crime, so unfortunately you can't ask dead people. These was something called the International Crime Victims Survey and was conducted in the Netherlands; I believe that was what the Economist article was based on. I have a master's degree in statistics and demography so keep up on these things--we do not think economists know statistics, but that's an in-joke. (you know, I don't really care whether people are trolls or not, I post based on whether I find a discussion interesting or not or a question worth answering--if I would answer it from a real person, I will from a fake person, it makes no diff. to me, as I figure the discussion or information could be of use to someone; this one was not interesting to begin with but has some interest now, to me). As a professional, it does bother me when peole misquote statistics or facts (I find it very surprising that Mr. Mueller has never heard of any other famous African Americans who moved to France except Josephine Baker, and does not believe it--there have been documentaries, art shows, books, etc all around this subject; they were in the arts community though, if you were not interested in writing or music, you might not know it). <BR>Oh, here is the reading assignment, a pretty good balanced article on African-Americans in Paris: <BR>http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/tra...lated/paaa.htm <BR>

Steve, Re: "America has plenty of Hispanic citizens. My state of Colorado has a very extensive Hispanic heritage." <BR> <BR>That's very true, Steve. But there's more to the story. I believe that most, if not all, of Colorado once belonged to Hispanics (specifically Mexicans/Mexico) until the U.S. decided to blatantly steal it under the banner of "Manifest Destiny" in the so-called "Mexican War", a war that Lieutenant Ulysses S. Grant, in 1948, called "...one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation." <BR> <BR>See: http://americanhistory.about.com/hom.../aa060900a.htm

Don't you all get it???? <BR> <BR>France wants to remain French! Yes it's ok for a limited number of "foreigners" to reside there, and they are tolerant - to a degree - of outsiders. But their main intent is to keep France "pure". Britain isn't so different. Even though both criticize the US for our race relations, it's just a cover for their own problems with different races. And they both are afraid of being overwhelmed by those of different backgrounds and thereby diluting their national identity. Neither even pretends to be a "melting pot" like the US. <BR> <BR>Don't you know you can't ever move to New Zealand and become a citizen unless you have a viable education and trade and enough money to guarantee that you won't become a drain on their society? New Zealand isn't alone. <BR> <BR>Wake up! The grass is always greener. If you think you can live better elsewhere, be my guest!

Christina, <BR> <BR>Your credentials (a Masters in statistics) are not impressive enough to cause me to doubt the Economist. <BR> <BR>Your post did motivate me to refer back to the edition of the Economist in which the crime statistics that you are so suspicious of were cited (Feb 24, pg. 58, A Nation of Criminals). My recollection of the burglary statistics were not entirely accurate. A person in France is less likely to be a victim of burglary than a person in the US. For burglary, the US rate is similar to that in the Netherlands, and less than that for the UK. <BR> <BR>The other categories addressed in that article, violent crime and auto theft, had higher incidences for France than for the US. In fact, for violent crime, the US was third from the last. <BR> <BR>Of all the African-American artists that you list as having fled racial persecution by emigrating to Paris, I have only heard of Langston Hughes, Melvin van Peebles, and Tina Turner (I suspect that if Tina was fleeing anything, it was Ike). <BR> <BR>Of course you can inflate your list by including obscure writers or legitimate musicians that recorded one or two albums in Paris or toured France, but that stretches the credibility of your argument that France is a racial haven. Moreover, you don't know why most of these people chose to live in Paris (maybe they liked the food), and I suspect that the majority of them returned to the US. <BR> <BR>I don't believe that Duke Ellington or Quincy Jones ever regarded Paris as home, and the notion that two of the most popular and successful musicians in the US fled to Paris because they were persecuted is absurd. <BR> <BR>The French maintain their self-illusion of racial tolerance by claiming that the ongoing persecution of North Africans is not a racial issue, but a religious one. As the French would say "c'est absurde."

An "ongoing persecution of North Africans" in France, and all these years I, and all the North Africans I know and/or work with have not been aware of it ? Steve, you're "absurde" and you've just proved you don't know what you're talking about and you can't refrain from your prejudices when it comes to France. <BR> <BR>As a French from African descent, I think I have a good idea of what the situation is like: there's a vocal extreme-right group that would like to "persecute" everybody suspected of not being perfectly white, the rest of the population doesn't really care, except at election time, France is far from perfect (as are the USA or any other country), and this whole thread is ridiculous.

Hello <BR> <BR>I logged in hoping there would be some backgound info sharing on Paris travel, but instead I see a full-blown discussion on politics etc. :O My fiance and I are going to Paris AND Barcelona for our honeymoon this July...should we cancel our trip now that I've realised there're Paris and Barcelona haters out there? <BR> <BR>

Oh, dear, as little Billy Goat Gruff, may I point out that 40% of black men in Britain have a white partner and this rises to 50% in the under 25 group. I recently read an interview with black British basketball player in which he said that he had hardly realised that he was black until he went to the USA. OK the UK is not perfect in its race relations, but having lived on both side of the Atlantic, I would say that it is a more integrated society.

Not a performer, but the first black women to receive a pilot's license, Bessie Coleman, received her training and license in France because no one in the United States would teach her to fly.

Later that night, Sam Bruce boarded the RER, heading for CDG, to board TWA and return to the USA ASAP. He closed his eyes, hoping to push away the memory of the "meduse" incident and the knifelike laughter. But then his revery was interrupted by the sounds of a struggle. O God, it was a full-scale melee aboil in the back of the train. Steve and Georgeo and Hitler and Yehudi and Josephine Baker and Tina Turner were a mass of writhing, raging flesh. At the end of his short rope, Sam rose up and screamed, "Is there no safe harbor in this world of torment?" Tina peeled herself from the pileup, stalked her way to Sam on stiletto heels, stopped coyly before him, and kicked him viciously in the groin. "Take that, ya filthy little troll," she spat.

Kudos to Jack - I hope that's not the end of the story... <BR> <BR>Exactly what this ridiculous thread needed.

Shalom Annie, <BR> <BR>You and yours should cancel your trip to Paris and Barcelona. Come and visit the lovely State of Israel. <BR> <BR>Yehudi <BR>NYC

Florence, <BR> <BR>I suggest you open your eyes and look around. Do you ever watch the news or read a newspaper? <BR> <BR>A March 2000 Harris poll reported that 60% of French citizens believe that there are "too many foreigners." Before you attribute this to non-racist xenophobia, you should know that 38% of respondents were more specific - there are "too many blacks." <BR> <BR>I doubt that anything will challenge your head-in-the-sand view of Europe, but you may want to read an article published in the Washington Post (June 11, 2000) titled "Racism Persists in France Despite Egalitarian Creed." <BR> <BR>Racism exists in the US, but I believe that it is becoming more and more marginalized. In parts of Europe, the opposite seems to be occurring.

To SamBruce's chagrin, all the flight attendants were French, as TWA (Troll Wagon Airlines) couldn't find enough rude Americans to employ. He tried desperately to get someone's attention (and an icepack) but he was ignored while the attendants filed their nails and smoked. <BR> <BR>Across the aisle, an Indian man leaned forward and said, "Would you like a packet of lovely postcards? Just 10 francs." SamBruce was beside himself (mostly because no one else would sit next to him) and spewed statistics with the fervor of Chris Matthews. <BR> <BR>And then, to add insult to injury, dinner was Haggis-in-a-Tube TM and the bar cart had no cognac. <BR> <BR>Suddenly the GE phone in front of him rang. It was his mistress, and she had bad news. She was leaving him for a new man; a man who knew *good* cigars and never stepped in dog pooh. SamBruce was crushed, but then <BR> <BR> <BR>"We'll always have Paris".... <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

After reading through the last 20 posts - as much as I would like to add a bit of levity - I would like to remind everyone who are sitting comfortably in front of their computer screen that there are modern day "holocausts" occuring right now. There are people being killed and displaced because of their nationality / religion / sexual orientation / race / gender. If you aren't doing something about the present injustices occuring in this world - if you concern yourself with only "your people" - then you have not really learned anything from our collective world history. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Some people keep saying that this is a troll and has nothing to do with travel. I see probably at least one question a week dealing with something like is it safe for a Black person in Germany or a mixed couple in France and so on. This conversation helps us answer those questions.

Most of you all have entirely too much time on your hands. Get back to work!! <BR> <BR>P.S. Go to Paris, be polite, enjoy the food, the wine, the art. If you can't, or if you don't. Go home. Do not return. <BR>Then book your next vacation for Atlantic City, or Newark. Now THERE'S a good time!!!!

Hello Americans, <BR> <BR>We don't mind you come to Paris for a few days, but please do not bring guns or gun-waiving young "uncivilised" adolescents with you. <BR> <BR>Who is SamBruce? The story Miss Elvira tells sounds like her own - a typical story of "hungry" American females coming to Paris to look for romance and got used, abused and jilted by Parisian males. <BR> <BR>Now, Mr. Sam is what I would call a Franco-phile. Although he not likes Paris, he knows how to get a mistress in Paris and do the "5 to 7." <BR> <BR>Bye-bye <BR> <BR>GA <BR>Paris

James Baldwin may be obscure to the general public, but his works are well respected among the literati. He was quite outspoken about how common racism is in France. He chose to live there despite this fact.

Wow, this thread reminds me so much of my trip tp France. We stayed in this great little hotel with a red awning, I can't recall the name. It was close to the subway, there was a great pastry shop right aroun the corner...

None of this is helping me with my trip. Please move this bickering to a chat room. <BR> <BR>Thanks, everyone, for nothing.