janisj,
I'm not looking to derail the thread.
I'm suggesting "aliam" needs to read or research a little on where they'd like to go, what they'd like to see and what they are looking to get out of this trip. So far there are good suggestions, considering there hasn't been any input or direction by the OP.

Paul

Like others I am not always an escorted tour advocate but for some people it is the right vacation and an escorted tour can be very nice. I think in your case an escorted tour would suit your needs best for very obvious reasons:
You want to see the most in a fairly short amount of time, you've never been and you want to watch your dollars. An escorted tour is the best way to fulfill your needs and to accomplish what you want. Unless you buy a rail pass and backpack around Europe staying in campgrounds.

&quot;<i>considering there hasn't been any input or direction by the OP.</i>&quot; we might not get much more info from the OP - his second post didn't really respond to any of the questions.

aliam: If you do want any specific advice/suggestions, it would help a LOT if you gave us some of the info requested above.

thanks all for the info,
- not counting airfare hope to average $250 per day,
- escorted trip, atleast for part of trip seems good but not sure if we would like being partially isolated from european experience
- my wife has always wanted to atleast see black forest area and vienna,
- we both want to see fountains , cobblestone streets, wander local markets, see rome, florence see paris at night. neither of us are excited about london. till later

Sorry, just clarifying: is that $250 per day for both of you? I hate to be a wet blanket, but perhaps you should be thinking of 2 weeks, not three?

Hotel: $130 (and this is VERY low, think B&amp;B and not centrally located)
Breakfast: (hopefully included!)
Lunch: $20
Dinner: $60
Museums: $20
Everything else: transportation, shopping, phone cards/internet:$10

This just doesn't work...how do you get from country to country: either you will have to find a VERY budget conscious tour with ALL expenses included or limit your time.

I'm sad to say I simply don't think that is enough money.

Your $250USD is $172 euro daily budget, just for starters.

So if you find hotel rooms for ~$100 euro (and that's fairly basic in cities like Paris, Florence, and Rome)... that leaves you only $72 for all your meals for two people, local transportation, admissions and sight seeing, trains between cities, etc.

I would consider: 1) shortening the trip to 10 to 14 days only, 2) look into renting apartments, 3) reconsider pricing an organized packaged tour.

Sure it can be done. Pick 3-4 cities that appeal to you and spend 4-7 days in each. That will allow you to use either apartments or B&amp;Bs. You can find well located studio apartments in Paris for under $120/night. You can find B&amp;Bs near Amsterdam (Haarlem) or in Delft, Bruge, Antwerp for 60-70 Euro/night. Same for Germany's Black forest area and Bavaria.

Street food in Europe tends to be better than the same in the US. Seek out local cafeterias where the locals eat. We had very nice meals at the Cafeteria Leonardo in Florence that cost under $10/person including wine. Ditto for a cafeteria near the train station in that most expensive city Venice. Ditto for a cafeteria in Prague where we absolutely pigged out on hearty Czech homestyle cooking for about $3-4/person including beer. Apartments allow you to shop local markets and cook your own food. It can be done.

Hi A,

Budget of $250 is about 170E pd.

&gt; my wife has always wanted to atleast see black forest area and vienna,
- we both want to see fountains , cobblestone streets, wander local markets, see rome, florence see paris at night.

Well, you have 6 venues in 21 days, on a tight budget.

It costs money to get from place to place.

And why have you left out Venice?

Have you considered cutting back to 2 weeks?

You could visit:

Paris and, Alsace or Provence or Burgundy.

If you go to Alsace you could take a day's drive through the Black Forest.

Paris, Venice and Florence
Paris and Rome

Venice, Florence and Rome

Bavaria and the Black Forest

Vienna and Prague

((I))

The more you move around the more expensive the trip because of all the transport costs.

So if you limit your selves to 2 or 3 places - you probably <i>could</i> do it on that budget. But every city you add only increases your overall expenses.

Food costs can be addressed - there are cheap options just about everywhere. But museums/sites/public transport all cost $$ and w/ two of you it will add up quick.

I would first decide if I could budget a bit more. If not, I'd consider cutting back to 2 weeks maybe 2.5 weeks. And then I would decide which <u>three</u> places were my absolute musts.

I would say that with the current exchange rate, about $300/day is the least you can reasonably expect to spend. Some people might do less by staying in hostels, etc., but the average budget traveler will probably spend a minimum of $300/day for a couple. Of course, cities are more expensive than small villages. You haven't said if you plan to rent a car or travel by train. Either can be expensive. If you are seeing the cities, trains are best. Point to point tickets can be inexpensive. But if you want to see the small villages, you will need a car in most areas. I agree that Rick Steves books can be helpful to a budget traveler - especially for a first time. We used his books a lot on our first trips to Europe.

The first thing is to decide where you want to go, plan a route, and go from there. Most of the time, some of the places get cut as you plan. It's also helpful if you fly into one city and home from another. That way you don't have to double back.

Although three weeks is a good amount of time, you would do better to see fewer places and spend more time in those places rather than trying to see all of Europe in three weeks. You will be on the move too much which is in itself very tiring. Try to stay at least three nights in most places - even more in cities like Paris or Rome.

This doesn’t have to be a difficult question at all. What is unfair is that you haven’t told us what you like to do. That’s a tall order, I know but here’s some help.

What do you like to do?

Do you want a vacation where you'll be doing something every minute?

Or do you see yourself relaxing in a pretty spot?

What type of museums are you interested in? Art? History? Toys?

Do you want to hike up beautiful mountains?

Or would you rather visit an exciting city?

When you think of Europe, what comes to mind? Eiffel Tower? Coliseum? Smoking weed in Amsterdam?

The first time I went to Europe I went to Spain, I loved it but was a little disappointed because the land looked so much like California.

If I’d have to name a favorite country, it’s Germany. I love the mountains, forests, autobahn, the people and generally, I suppose because I am of German descent, I understand how things work there.

So, if this is going to be your only trip, ever (ouch!) maybe you’d like to check out where your ancestors are from, if you are of European descent.

If you stay in one city, like Paris, you’ll save lots of money not traveling around. But if it’s your only trip ever, (gosh, I hate to type that) you may want to see as much as possible.

Hi,
If you're travelling in the fall (as you initailly stated) the later (Oct. instead of Sept.) can sometimes mean cheaper airfare and accomodations. If on a budget and the $$ are tight, stay outside the major cities. Maybe we're in the minority, but we've enjoyed and haven't felt we missed anything in our 8 trips to Europe so far and we've never been to Paris, London, Vienna, Venice, Rome, Prague, etc. There is a lot to see and experience even if you don't do the major cities. If &quot;we both want to see fountains, cobblestone streets, wander local markets&quot; is what intesets you, that can be done in virtually any small town without the big city expenses.

Paul

Now that you've got a short-list of places to visit, and an approx. budget, I would start to think about your comfort threshold. How &quot;budget&quot; are you and your wife willing to go in terms of food and accomodation? Are you happy to sleep in spartan rooms and eat groceries in order to eek out a three week trip? Or would you rather shorten your trip to say, 2 weeks and up the comfort level a smidgen? Is mobility an issue? Would you be okay staying in a place that had a lot of stairs? (there are some bargain rooms and apartments that stay bargains because you must climb 100 steps to get to them)

IMO Paris is a good dollar-for-dollar value city in which to stay a full week. The metro is pretty cheap and you can get a 6-day museum pass for about $100 that gives you unlimited, multiple entry to dozens of museums including the the Louvre, d'Orsay, l'Orangerie, Petit Palais, the Picasso, the Rodin, the Pompidou Centre, and many many more. If you rent an apartment and stick to buying your own food, with a couple of simple meals out, and maybe some street or ethnic food, you could have a wonderful week in Paris for very little money. I'm renting an apartment in the 11th in Paris for a week in April, and it only costs about $450. It's small though and up about a million flights of stairs.

If you're thinking of going to only cities, think about taking your trip in the off season, like in January or February or November, when airfares are lower, places are less crowded, and you might get low season discounts on apartments and hotels.

I think you can do that. Tough, but possible.

1. Stay in hostels. Basic, but cheap and cheerful. Some of teh guys on here talk about mansteries, but I've never got my head round that

2. Use buses to get around, and treat the travel as part of the trip. You'll meet more people, and get a chance to savour more.

3. Eat your own food- easy in hostels anyway. Picnic outdoors in good weather. Don't buy in delis; buy in supermarkets or markets.

4. I see no reason why you can't do Vienna, Black Forest, Rome, Florence, Paris, in 3 weeks.

Rome, Florence, Vienna, and Paris are awash with fountains, and Rome, Paris and Florence with markets.

If you're airfare includes between places, it gets easier.

Where are you coming from?

Go to Austria, where you can always find inexpensive places to stay (such as the area of Salzburger Land, which is very beautiful with all its mountains and alpine meadows), and then just go hiking in the mountains! Doesn't cost anything and it's soooo beautiful, good for your physical and spiritual health! Enjoy! :-)

I did not mean the budget was not sufficient to plan some kind of a nice trip, just not the one originally described at that price.

Oh, and go in the summer. It's always cheaper out of doors.

re: &lt;&lt;go in the summer&gt;&gt;

I completely disagree. Everything is so much cheaper and more pleasant off-season. Summer ruins everything. Yuck.

It's certainly cheaper, but 3 weeks in the rain when you can't afford much indoors is a miserable turn off.

I guess even I would avoid July or August, tho'