zeppole

I have to disagree with NanBug. Since I live in italy and drive here all the time, I love to "veg out" on a train when it's convenient -- and there is no reason to limit yourself to the most touristy parts of Italy just because you're on a train.

There are marvelous ways to see Italy using the train and even filling in with taxis or drivers here and there if you are not paying for a car. (Do you drive stickshift?)

Driving in most parts of Italy is not difficult (parking can be much more awful) but it can be the source of a lot of arguing and fatigue (and missed landscapes for the driver). But Orvieto, Tarquinia, Arezzo, Chiusi, Montepulciano, Lucca, Pisa, Firenze, Ferrara -- I could go on forever with great towns, hill and flat, accessible by train, many with no tourists to speak of at all, many with marvelous views and beautifully preserved.

I have been to Venezia many times with my sweetie by my side. I avoid it now as much as possible -- and I've still got my sweetie, who agrees with me. Venezia is very popular with American tourists -- rather too popular one sometimes feels. I would not want to spend a honeymoon there (I'd go for the steamy hot springs with the vino) but others love it. Up to you and your beloved-- but believe me, the Venezia boosters seldom see it that way when they give free advice.

Lexma90

Especially if Venice wasn't high on your list originally, then don't add it now - assume you'll return to Italy!

If you visit Rome and Florence, and then spend time in rural Tuscany, then you'll see of the variety of Italy.

Unless I'm travelling point to point between two large cities in which I won't need a car (i.e., Florence and Rome), I would much rather have a rental car. With a car, you can travel where and when you like, visit the smallest hilltown you can find, and don't have to make sure that you make it to the train station in time. DH and I don't find driving in Italy, either on the highway or the backroads, stressful. In fact, I enjoy driving on the well-maintained highways with driver who (generally) have been manners than U.S. highway driviers, and on those curvey, scenic roads between gorgeous hilltowns.

But the bottom line is, if YOU and your spouse find driving in Italy stressful, then it will be.

cerebra

jelliott17: We're also very interested in wine tours. BTW, congrats on your upcoming wedding. How did you go about researching wine tours, or wineries?

zeppole

Lexma, I agree with most of your advice, but I wouldn't make this a competitive psychological issue!

Perhaps the reason you find drivers on Tuscan roads in Italy as mannerly as U.S. drivers was that they were U.S. drivers? Tourists who do the val d'Orcia circuit or the Chianti in high season are mostly driving with other tourists.

Most people who recommend paying for a car and driving from small hill town to small hill town never realize how easy it can be to get a taxi. Driving is what they do -- in America and in Italy -- so don't know how to make it easy not to drive. When I want a car in Italy, I rent one. But I don't own one because it's sure easy to get around by bus, train and taxi -- and I never have to find a parking place! (Although October is less dense with tourists).

But the real issue is: Does cerebra drive stickshift? If not, can he afford an automatic? Also, cars end up dictating a trip (small hill towns, as if they were end all be all).

Good for everybody for sharing their experiences. But most people don't have a wide variety of experience or basis for comparison.

NanBug

Hi, Zeppole. I think you misunderstood me. The OP suggested skipping Tuscany, so I suggested the cities via train. I wasn't suggesting that they could only see touristy areas via train -- the OP was the one that mentioned Rome, Florence and possibly Venice, so I was following their lead. The cities are touristy, yes, but if it was my first time to Italy, I'd probably go there, too. And, the most logical way to get to these cities is by train. Hence my comments. Your posts certainly mentioned some excellent less touristy alternatives, which are great. I've even made a note of some of your suggestions, so thanks.

And, you are preaching to the choir about public transport -- I almost always travel solely public transport -- even when dozens of folks say it can't be done efficiently or enjoyably, even when 99.9% of the advice I heard or read said it was nearly impossible. It most certainly isn't.

Anyway, enough of this. I'm dreaming of those hot springs...

annhig

hi cerebra,

sorry about this - you have far too much moving about, IMHO, for a honeymoon, even a "modern" one. you have 13 nights, and you have 7 changes of hotel - are you mad? do you WANT to stay married?

I have 3 suggested itineraries, all based on you flying into and out of Rome:

1. from Rome, train to Venice, stay 3 nights, pick up car/take train to selected resort in Tuscany [Montepulciano?] or Umbria, [Orvieto?] stay 5 nights, train to Rome, stay 5 nights. there are many variatinos of this, involving other smaller places in Tuscany/Umbria, and if you didn't want to stay in Orvieto all that time, but wanted to visit, you could return the car there, and stay a night en route to Tome, but you get the idea.

2. from Rome, take train to Florence, stay 3 nights, then proceed as above.

3. from Rome, take train to Naples, then proceed to Positano/Sorrento/amalfi. stay 7-8 nights, then train back to Rome for remainder of stay [you'd have time to do a day trip to Orvieto if you wanted to].

finally, repeat after me " less is more".

Congrats, and have a great trip,

regards, ann

zeppole

Great. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Saturnia is not the only hot springs destination in volcanic Italy -- and quite a few are on train lines! -- so maybe you can find a good place to soak and steam on your next off-season trip.

NanBug

Sounds amazing. I love the name Saturnia, too.

Ian

I agree with annhig: "less is more". The biggest mistake vacationers to Europe make (I have too) is to try to see too much & go too many places. Europe is best savored slowly.

Ian

cerebra

After reading a lot of comments, and thinking more about the speed and style of the trip, I think the following itinerary better suits us. I'm keeping in mind trips to places like the hot springs, and smaller cities mentioned above.

Tue Oct 20th: Arrive FCO 7:45am train to Orvieto or other Tuscan town, get rental car, go to agriturismo/winery/hotel/apartment
Wed Oct 21st: Tuscany
Thur Oct 22nd: Tuscany
Fri Oct 23rd: Tuscany
Sat Oct 24th: Tuscany
Sun Oct 25th: Tuscany, Travel to Florence, drop off car
Mon Oct 26th: Florence
Tue Oct 27th: Florence
Wed Oct 28th: Florence, Travel to Rome
Thur Oct 29th: Rome
Fri Oct 30th: Rome
Sat Oct 31st: Rome
Sun Nov 1st: Rome
Mon Nov 2nd: Depart 9:45am

I'm excited about this new itinerary, as it promises to be more relaxing, and potentially more romantic as we'll spend less time traveling from hotel to hotel, and more time enjoying.

I know where I'm staying in Rome, and Florence, so that just leaves Tuscany. I have no IDEA what city to stay in, or where to stay. Hotel? Agriturismo? The soon-to-be-wife and I love wine, and good food, so perhaps if those could be integrated somehow that'd be wonderful. Do these places have curfews? I just worry about being out late.

Any help on this important part of the trip would be VERY helpful - where to stay in Tuscany, as an introduction to the area. First time doing this, doesn't have to be perfect, but something "good" would be great. And it's a honeymoon, so we're willing to splurge a bit more than normal.

zeppole

It's great that you are making Toscana your first destination. You'll have lots of time to relax.

No curfews, but if you are wine drinkers, my recommendation is not be driving after dark on Italian country roads.

So my suggestions would be either to:

1) stay in an agriturismo well regarded for its food and wine, and eat dinner there every night -- which can be the very most exquisite way to experience Italian meals. When you go to a restaurant and try to figure out which appetizer you should have, with which pasta, and which second plate -- plus which wine -- it's really hard to match the native knowledge on that. And there is something really wonderful about sharing the same meal (instead of eating off each other's plates). Many Italian agriturismos make their own wine, and it can be fanstastic.

or

2) Stay in towns big enough that you have a feeling that have enough to explore, especially if you don't feel like getting up and day tripping every day.

I am inclined to suggest you stay in Orvieto a night or two to start, since Orvieto has a great white wine culture and a lovely setting, and is easily reached by train from Roma Termini. Some place nice in town should do you for two nights, and then for red wine, either decamp for the Chianti region or to the Brunello vinyards of the val d'Orcia. There I would try to find a great agriturismo or rural hotel with a restaurant in the vicinity of Montalcino where you can eat home cooked food and drink the great wine without worrying about driving home!

Toscana is filled with marvelous lodgings, many with well-regarded restaurants attached. You have plenty of time to do research. It's often written about in magazines, newspapers and the internet.

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-...ia-Hotels.html

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-...ia-Hotels.html

although this place doesn't cook meals...

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Rev...a_Tuscany.html


http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-...ia-Hotels.html

zeppole

I would be very tempted by this place:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...ECK_RATES_CONT

http://www.agriturismolecaggiole.it/agriturismo_en.html

zeppole

and this also might work for you if you prefer a town rather than a countryside accommodation:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...J6SCmwOJx9CXAQ

zeppole

Sorry, it was the San Francesco I was specifially recommending.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...J6SCmwOJx9CXAQ

zeppole

one more try, and I'll stop:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Rev...o_Tuscany.html

NanBug

Looks good Cerebra!

Like Zeppole said, I'd be inclined to stay in Orvieto that first night and pick up the car the next day, so you have time to recover from your flight and enjoy Orvieto.

Zeppole, you are a font of information!

tcreath

I too really like your new itinerary, and I think staying in Orvieto for at least the first night would be nice. The duomo is gorgeous and there are some good restaurants.

Zeppole, those places look amazing!

Tracy

zeppole

Increasingly I come to believe that staying in a place where somebody cooks for you is a much superior Italian experience to picking your way through a menu at a restaurant, or going to a different restaurant every night. And it's not as relaxing. Home-bottled wine is also quite a treat. But it's tricky, because there are not many food reviewers who have the time to stay in an agriturismo, except the most expensive ones, so it's hard to tell somebody going on a honeymoon, "Oh sure, eat here 3 nights in a row.) There is an agriturismo near Orvieto called Borgo San Faustino that Michelin recommends. That's unusual.

But also, even if people don't stay in a place with a restaurant, it's a good strategy in Italy that if you are staying in a town and you really like your first dinner at some restaurant, keep going back. Eat there every night. The owners will feel so complimented, you'll get all kinds of treats. They'll want you to taste things. And you can try the other dishes on the menu. It's just nicer.

cerebra

Zeppole: Thanks for all the information. I think an agriturismo that cooks for us would be a great option, especially if they're, like you said, known for their food and wine.

How does the cooking part work though? Do we have to be back and settled in the house by 6 or 7pm, whenever they eat dinner? Does that cut the nights short? Are the agriturismos good for romantic couples? Does each nights meal come as part of the expense of the room, or do you pay on a per-meal basis?

Sorry for the questions, but I have very limited knowledge of how the agriturismo works, even after doing a google search on it. It tends to just define it, rather than talk about different types, how coming and going there works, how dinners are arranged, etc.

zeppole

Italians eat dinner at 8pm or slightly later, and that is true whether you are eating where you are staying or in a restaurant. All quality Italian food is not cooked or finished until the cook sees the whites of your eyes. Traditionally, italians eat an "anti-pasta" dish, often room-temp, while their pasta is being cooked. Likewise, they eat pasta (or soup) while the meat dish is being cooked, and the vegetables. So it's not like your food is going to get cold if you have trouble parking the car.

In some old-fashioned inns and lodgings with a restaurant or a cook, you book your stay as a "half-board", and you are down for wanting breakfast and dinner for your entire stay, and it's included your bill. At some agriturismos, especially once the high season is over, you work it out with your host. You should certainly have confirmed beforehand that the establishment has a restaurant or a cook, but sometimes ask only for one meal. Sometimes they proprietor will say "Oh, tell us when you get here." They may ask you in the morning if you're going to be back for dinner, so they can go shopping. But if you are picking a place because you think you would rather not drive after dinner, and want home-cooked meals, make sure the proprietor agrees to that before you book yourself into some pretty countryside farm, without a restaurant you can walk to.

The days begin to shorten in October, and some people (myself among them) don't like to drive late in the day, after dark. They pick day trips that are less than an hours drive, and Toscana is so crammed with so many lovely, fascinating stops, you can easily see a great deal at your doorstep and be home having a nice bath and cocktail by shortly after sunset -- and you are well in time for dinner.

However, if you start looking at maps and thinking how much you'd like to fling to Assisi, and fling yourself at Siena, or other longish day trips with lots to see, you might prefer simply picking a very well located hotel, and carrying with you a very good restaurant guide for the region, and choosing a restaurant on your way home from your day trips.

If you feel you would enjoy the deep peace of a countryside stay, an agriturismo with a kitchen doesn't restrict you during daylight hours at all in Tuscany and it can be incredibly relaxing to be cooked for. If you worry that you'll go nuts just toodling around small roads in Italy seeing small towns and small abbeys, and you'll be itching to really have adventures and explore with your car, they you might be do best to pick a pretty larger town to stay in so in case you come back around 10pm and hungry, somebody bar owner will take pity on you and at least make you a sandwich.

You really do have a fair amount of time to think about what you want, and you aren't going in high season. And believe me: If you come to Italy with just a Red Michelin guide and a Green Michelin Guide and just your hotel reservations -- you'll still have a great time. October is a very beautiful time to be where you are going, so do what makes you and your travel mate comfortable.