ekscrunchy

Thanks, Maudie. I have used it on a few trips. It is my first digital camera and I have to confide that I am not entirely comfortable with it. For one thing, I can't figure out how to focus... that should give you an idea of the level at which I am stuck. Also, it is very hard to view a prospective shot through the screen on the back of the camera...there is not enough contrast, making it difficult to see....

RonDace

I fully agree with rkkwan's comments. While there are a lot of great P&S cameras they just don't have the versatility and range that a full featured dSLR has. I carry a Nikon S3 whenever I travel for business because it's light and easy and it's great for snapshots. On vacation I take the Canon D20 and the image stabilized lenses. There's a world of difference between the two with respect to the overall quality of the images and what can be done with the camera. It's really hard to adjust the exposure with the Nikon and I'm pretty stuck with the auto settings. With the Canon I can set everything in manual and control every aspect of the shot.
The downside is that the full featured dSLRs are much more expensive than the P&S models.

JimF

I experienced this same dilemma, and resolved in my mind that there are really two camera paths, and they do not cross, really.

My photography background is 35 mm and 2 1/4 film, and several years ago I purchased an upscale digital (not slr). I did not want to sacrifice quality. It has been an excellent camera, but this year I wanted something smaller, better for travel.

As I researched cameras, I pondered the same points -- Canon's Powershots, perhaps lenses later, etc. -- and realized that for this purchase I should really focus on size, and get as much quality as possible but it was not going to achieve DSLR levels. If I wanted high quality, really high quality, with interchangable lenses, etc., that would have to come later, so DSLR models came off the list.

The S3 is a bit larger than what I wanted. I sought something about the size of my cell phone, that would fit in my pocket. I settled on the Canon S800, because it was compact, had an image stability system, and good optics. I have been working with it about 10 days, and it is really an impressive little camera that I can recommend.

Now, when I am pointing this puppy out from Notre Dame in May, catching the afternoon sun over Paris, it had better perform! If it does not, I will take all of this back and you will have been cautioned before you leave for Italy.

Good luck,

Jim

sunny16

I agreew with pretty much everything rkkwan said - the OP is talking about two different types of camera.

That said, for those who are looking for a versatile P&S-type digicam, I would like to suggest the Leica D-Lux 3 / Panasonic Lumix LX-2 (same camera, different prices). I got the Leica as my carry- everywhere camera, and while it's no substitute for a DSLR, it offers plenty of manual control if you want it. It even shoots in RAW mode so you can do lighting corrections more easily on your computer (Canon and Nikon have dropped RAW from their digicams), and it's image stabilized. Again, no substitute for a DSLR, but it's head and shoulders above any pocket digicam I've ever carried, and it's less bulky than the S3.

Maudie

Hi again Eks,

It did take me a while to get used to the screen, it is smaller than I would have liked but I just couldn't seem to get all the features I wanted in one camera.
I use the viewfinder quite a bit and do find the screen hard to see in bright sunlight.
I must admit I too have taken my share of fuzzy photo's! The camera should focus for you if you press the shutter in half way. I guess it is just practice, practice. I would like to take a photography course at some stage to learn how to use all the extra
features instead of trying to understand the book!!

Maria_H

There are a lot of good cameras out there, Canon and others - at the end of the day it depends how much you are willing to pay and how in depth you intend to take learning about photography. I keep saying I'd like to learn more and maybe one day I'll take an evening class - meanwhile I'm just picking up knowledge a bit at a time. I wouldn't like to go on holiday without my camera but most of the time I just point and shoot off half a dozen pictures while my husband spends ages trying to get the perfect shot, swapping lenses, etc. He's happy with his SLR and I'm happy with my S3! We just need ever increasing amounts of storage for the huge number of shots we take between us!

Go into a traditional camera shop and have a good look round and see what you feel comfortable with - then compare prices on the internet. I'd be interested to hear what you decide on getting.

weber6560

I am certainly not in the class of the serious photograper so an important consideration for me was battery. I opted for AA batteries rather than the the rechargeable to avoid carring the charge unit, adaptors, etc

basingstoke2

I agree with rkkwan's comments. A dSLR is in a class of its own. However, you have some conflict in your wishes, as a dSLR with its lens will be larger and heavier than a long zoom camera such as the Canon S3. The S3 is a fine camera too, but don't overlook the other 2 excellent long zooms, the Sony H2 and the Kodak Z612. All 3 are 12X zoom, have IS, 6mp and fine lenses. All three can use over the counter batteries, the Canon and Sony AA and the Kodak CRV3 lithium in place of its propriatery rechargeable. The CRV3 is less available than AA, but readily available none-the-less. The Sony is even prefered by some professional review site over the S3 (imaging_resources.com for one). The Kodak has been reviewed by Steves digicams, rates well and by a small margin is the most compact of the three. The three have different feature sets so it depends on what is important to you. Low end internet prices from reliable sites are about $350 Canon, $300 Sony and $230 Kodak.

peterboy

Wow such controversy!

to the original poster AP6380:

Just get the Canon S3 IS. It will be fine and allow you to enjoy your trip
without lugging around a DSLR and extra lens. It also has enough features to help you learn the BASICS of photography and is capable of producing excellent images. It also has some cool features like time lapse mose and an excellent macro mode.

I know, I know, DSLRs are wonderful but
with the limited time you have, you won't master a DSLR before the trip anyway. You have a chance of getting a grip on the S3 IS an what it can do.

Bear in mind that the Canon S3 IS can be had for $350 or less which is about half of what a decent lens for a a DSLR will cost.

If you really have your heart set on a DSLR then the Canon Rebel XTi seems good but the kit lenses that come with them are in the slow side. An XTi with a decent lens will go about $1500 to $1700.

Get the $350 Canon S3 IS for this trip and it will be a great backup camera for later when and if you decide to make the DSLR leap.

Don't worry overmuch about how "serious" the camera is.

The real question is how serious are YOU about photography?

Learn how to use your camera and practice, practice, practice. This is the biggest benefit of digital photography...instant and FREE feedback.

As I've said before, a better camera won't make you a better photographer.

Practice makes you a better photographer.

http://www.pbase.com/peterb

sssteve

AP6380:

Check out the site below. Try option #2 for an online tutorial on selecting a digital camera to buy.

http://www.shortcourses.com/

Rastaguytoday

I tend to rely on Consumer's Reports as a starting place. The November 2006 issue rates all the various types of cameras. You can find it at a library or from a friend. Decide which one(s) fit you best and go "test drive" at your local store. Once you've decided what you want to buy, get a photography magazine and check out the various ads. I'm pretty much loyal to the best deal, and have bought from Adorama and Abe's of Maine for the best price and no sales tax on the delivery. There are lots of other discount stores that have similar prices. Check them out.

fnarf999

I tend to agree that a point-and-shoot with a long zoom is best. Nothing meets every criterion, but the point about the kit lens that comes with a DSLR being inferior is a good one. To get the same lens coverage as one of the 10x or 12x "prosumer" cameras on a DSLR will cost thousands of dollars. Yes, a wider angle is better for travel but your kit lens will not get you there either.

The models you are looking at all have outstanding optics. The Panasonic has a Leica lens and a very nice compact format. The Canons are nice too. Really, it's very hard to buy a lousy digital these days. All of these have good manual controls, too. The Panasonic doesn't have manual focus, which is one thing you might miss as you get more experienced; occasionally (not often) autofocus will be confused by some scenes.

Seriously, the most important component of any camera is the user; and if you are careful about composing your photographs you can get far better results with just the auto settings on a prosumer model than a careless shooter with the fanciest DSLR and set of lenses around.

Prosumer advantages: light, cheap, pocketable or nearly so. Less of a tragedy if it's stolen. DSLR advantages: interchangeable lenses, control, slightly better optics (at sometimes extreme cost). Remember you're going to be carrying this thing all over Italy. A camera stowed away in a bag (or left back at the hotel) is of no use if the inspiration hits you -- and when traveling you're being bombarded by inspiration all the time. Which one do you want to be holding in your hand the whole time?

Buy the long-zoom point and shoot now ($250 for the Lumix, it's smaller) and learn how to use it. See how you like fooling with the manual modes, and see how badly you start wanting fancier gear. Then, you can decide if you want to drop a couple of thousand on a DSLR.

Zeus

I just upgraded from a Nikon sub-compact model to the Sony Cybershot H2 and I am astounded by the difference in picture quality. Not that the Nokon took crappy shots, but the new Sony is amazing. And it's surprisingly easy to use. The manual will scare the snot out of you because this baby does so many things, but rather than worry too much about aperture settings, ISO and white levels, I just set it on one of the many auto settings and have been getting superb shots. I haven't taken it on vacation yet. In my book the real test is what kind of photos it'll take in an European cathedral. I have yet to own a digital camera that took satisfactory shots.

phototraveler

AP6380, I didn't read all the posts, but:
1) If you want to buy lenses in the future, you MUST go with a DSLR. It's an excellent investment. I'd recommend an entry-level one, like the Canon XT or XTi, or the Nikon D40-80. The main DSLR advantages are lenses (better range=close, far, wide for insides), external flash (indoor photos/a lot better than the built-in flash). Be prepared to pay at least $500 for a good lens in the future. About $300 for flash, and about $100 for memory.
2)If you don't plan on buying lenses, but still takes photography seriously, a Canon G7 will do it. It has 99% of the functions of a DSLR, even the hook-up for external flashes, anti-vibration system, Although it goes up to 210mm, which is really close, you won't get the same results of a changeable lens. The G7 only loses on the wide range of things, which is bad if you want to take photos of tight places/close things/large groups of people.
I went to Europe for the first time with a point and shoot canon. Although I took lots of memorable photos, I wish I had a better camera.
Now I have a Xti DSLR and two good lenses, so I hope to get better results.
If you like photography
Hope this helps.

AP6380

Wow... loads of info., thanks!!! I went into J&R World quickly today on lunch and took a look at the Nikon D40 and the Canon XTI. The D40 is about $600 and the Canon $700. Now, since I am such a novice, the specs on these camera do not say anything about optical zoom. Does this mean there is no zoom at all without purchasing extra lenses or is it just expressed differently????

I really prefer to stay in the $500 range.... we will see!

fnarf999

Zoom is a function of lenses, not cameras. On the point and shoots, the lens is built-in and cannot be changed (you can buy screw-on lenses to add some wide and telephoto capability, which can be fun to fool with but are not in the same class as true interchangeable SLR lenses).

With an SLR, the amount of zoom depends on what lens you have fitted to it. You can buy zoom (and "prime", or single-length) lenses in an incredible array of focal lengths if you have the money, from 12mm to 600mm or more. No one zoom can cover this range, though, and the prices for good lenses at the extremes of this range will turn your hair white. For instance the Nikon 12-24mm zoom, which will fit on the D40, will set you back another thousand dollars just for the lens.

The D40 is typically sold in a kit with a 18-55mm zoom lens. Because of a technical issue with the sensor size, this is equivalent in 35mm terms to a zoom of 27mm to 82mm, which are the numbers you should be comparing to the 35mm equivalents of your point-and-shoots.

The equivalent optical zoom range for the Canon S3 is 36mm to 432mm; for the Panasonic it's 35mm to 350mm. So you can see that the point-and-shoots don't go as wide, but they do extend much further into telephoto. Another factor is speed; the kit lens with the D40 is quite slow, with a maximum aperture from f3.5 to f5.6 depending on what zoom you're at; the S3 is at f2.7 to f3.5, and the Panasonic is at f2.8 to 4.2. What this means is, they will be able to take adequate pictures in less light.

Wide angle allows you to fit more of a scene into your picture, which is handy when you're trying to shoot a close-up building or interior; telephoto brings distant objects close. You have to decide which is more important to you.

You can get lenses for the D40 that will far surpass the performance of these point-and-shoots, but you will pay a lot for them. If you're comfortable with expanding into the $2,000 range, you can get lenses that will make for a very nice system with the D40 (and you can reuse them if you upgrade the camera itself someday); but if you're stuck at $500, you're going to get a lot more bang with the P&Ses.

rkkwan

If you decide to go with the dSLR, then there are several makers who have them. The most popular brands currently are Canon and Nikon. It's <b>much more important</b> to look at the brand as a whole, because you'll be buying lenses and flash and accessories to go with them in the future.

So, be very careful with your choice and don't just base your decision on a particular camera model itself.

One more thing about the D40. When the camera makers first moved into auto-focus cameras in the late 80's, Nikon decides to put the focusing motor on the camera and have a mechanical coupling between lens and camera. So, many of the older Nikon AF lenses do have an internal motor in it.

All Nikon AF SLRs, up to the D40, have the motor, but <b>not the D40</b>. That means it can only use the newer lenses that have an internal motor. Keep that in mind when you decide which brand to go with.

Also, neither Nikon nor Canon has image stabilizer (IS) in their dSLRs bodies. Instead, they have IS in some of their lens. They are extremely effective, but add significantly to their cost. [For Canon's offering, that adds $300-500 <b>per lens</b> ].

Sony's new A100 dSLR isn't that much more expensive than the Canon XTi, and probably cheaper than Nikon D80, but has in-body IS. It's not as effective as Nikon and Canon's solution, but it means you get some IS benefit on every lens you put on. BTW, Sony bought out Minolta/Konica's SLR business, so they're not a new comer. You can use most of Minolta's AF lens on that camera.

fnarf999

Yes, the Sony is pretty sweet; the &quot;four-thirds&quot; system they inherited from K-M has many partisans, and the built-in IS is very tempting. There are so many good older lenses out there. It's interesting, because Sony's managed to muck up their technological standing in just about every other area, so it will be nice if they can come back with this SLR. I hope so, not just because I used to like Sony products but because I don't think a bipolar Canon-and-Nikon-only world is good for innovation. Note that Pentax and Panasonic both make very attractive entry-level DSLRs as well. As I said before, you really have to go out of your way to buy a bad camera these days.

The best solution, of course, is always to wait; something much better will come out just seconds after you finally spend your money. It always does. As with computers, logic says to never buy, continue to wait forever!

My primary camera is 40 years old....

rkkwan

Actually, Sony's dSLR doens't use the Four Thirds system. Currently, Four Thirds are used by Olympus and Panasonic only. Panasonic's DMC-L1 is far from entry level. It comes with a Leica lens and cost $1,500.

The main dSLR lens &quot;systems&quot; are:

- Canon
- Nikon
- Sony/MinoltaKonica
- Pentax/Samsung
- Four Thirds (Olympus/Panasonic/Leica)
- Sigma

Kodak also makes professional-level dSLR using Canon and Nikon lens mounts, and Fuji makes thee same using Nikon lens mount.

Also note that there are three large independent makers who produces lenses for SLRs.

- Tamron. Almost all of their lens have Canon, Nikon and Sony/Minolta versions. Some also have the Pentax/Samsung mount. For those who love &quot;super-zooms&quot;, they already have a 18-200mm zoom, and will have a new 18-250mm one. Selling for &lt;$400, that means you can get an entry-level dSLR body and this lens for under $1,000.

- Sigma. They make versions to fit most of the mounts except Four Thirds, which they are starting to add a few. But some more specialized lens are only in Canon, Nikon and their own Sigma mounts.

- Tokina. All their lens have Canon and Nikon versions. Some also Konica/Minolta.

Marsh

Phototraveler,
Which lenses did you get for your Canon DSLR? I have the Rebel xt with just the kit lens, because I can't decide on another lens. I mainly want a travel lens, and I am not real steady holding the camera. But, a IS lens adds weight &amp; uses more battery power. So, I continue to use the kit lens.