PWNED=to have one's a## kicked.

Guy, I didn't realize you were a new poster (a few weeks). Maybe that explains your surprise in discovering how things unfold on a thread like the one you created.

Many of us have been posting here for years (and years). I'm not saying that as a positive or negative thing, just that I have seen literally hundreds of discussions of all manner of topic come and go, some more well received than others. I don't think as a travel forum we are expected to be "nurturing" necessarily. An exchange of accurate information is what I see as the primary goal.

>>A person I know states confidently that I travel because I am not settled and always looking for happiness somewhere else<<

Since I'm 28 and single, and pretty content with my life, ... that's pretty much what everyone around me thinks of me and my travel addictions. I constantly think of how I can downsize my life so that I could spend less in other areas of my life and travel more. My friends and co-workers want me to get married, settled down, and have kids ... and I do want all that, when the time is right for me.

Thanks for that insight, suze (sincere, not sarcastic). On the day I started this thread, I had been noticing all kinds of frivolous posts (of the non-informational variety) and thought I'd join in the fun! Sheesh! I'm going to stick to the "Do you know a good restaurant in Mougins" type of a post that I'd been limiting myself to up until then. Am also new to forums (fora?) in general, and was clearly feeling too comfortable too soon. But honestly, suze, while I'm a very jokey kind of person, I'm also the person who helps others see things from others' points of view (believe it or not!) and am known for slowness to condemn others--people who are considered difficult, for instance. So you can see why this has all been a big surprise to me. I'll continue to believe that the vast majority of people on this forum are quite kind and I will more carefully phrase my posts in the future.

Guy, Don't give up. Come over to the Australia forum. I think we're a bit more relaxed. We enjoy, ironic thought and poking fun at ourselves and our other friends. If you get lucky some one will send you Tim Tams.

AndrewDavid

Hey Guy, I thought the post was interesting and dived in with a small one right at the start. I have enjoyed the comments laughed at many, I have agreed with some and others I have not.

The key thing about fodors is that everyone is different.
Possibly by race, Nationality, religion, upbringing etc etc etc and we all have our own opinions about things.
That is exactly why this forum and also your thread has been success full with so many posts.

Just take personal comments with a pinch of salt.

I look forward to your next post.

Muck

;-)

Guy, I thought it was a great post! I’ve been reading it for several days now.
I have been wondering about the same thing as you for a long time.
I did not understand why the interest for a foreign travel is so low in US. A lot of people love luxurious vacations like cruises, resorts etc, but not a real travel.
It was very interesting to read all these different ideas on this topic.
I think the posts like yours makes this board great, and make me want to check it out every day!

Do you really think Americans are the only ones who don't have passports??? Come on people...use your brains! There ARE people ALL around the world who have not travelled abroad, cannot travel, and who have no desire to...want an example???

We have very good friends in France (have travelled to Germany, Switzerland, Spain) and they are in their 50's and they have never been on a airplane before!! They wanted to come see us this spring but cannot get passports (because of a French strike) soon enough, so they are waiting until next year.

Does anyone have statistics on the percentage of Europeans who have ever left their continent compared to Americans? I would like to know.

Guy... Heck no, you should be proud of yourself.

This thread has 87 replies so far and lots of good conversation going on. Anytime you initiate a question outside the most mundane (and as opposed to answering threads started by others) you take the chance of folks misunderstanding your intent.

Ya done great (seriously not sarcastically)!!

Andrew, Mucky, Helen, and Suze-You're all too kind!!

What a fascinating lesson in language, personality differences, and who-knows-what-else this thread has been!

Andrew, I will sneek onto the Australia forum from time to time. Someday I'd like to visit there. Sadly, I would probably need to be hospitalized after the flight(s). (By the way, that's just more of my seemingly unavoidable hyperbole, if it wasn't clear :) )

Guy18, I get 'ya. Wealthy people who don't travel baffle me too.

BUT I think travelers can turn into travel snobs if they don't stop and think. Some people just don't like to travel! End of story.

Some of those people are camping in the woods or fishing or bowling or obsessed with garage sales or minature horses. Do you know Shakespeare never left England? There is more to life than travel. Also to consider, if you do not have the travel funds, you better find out what that is.

Also among avid travelers some people get a holier than thou thing going. I vacation annually in a wonderful resort town in Mexico, posters on another travel forum made fun of me for not being more adventurous or up to their standards of rough travel in Mexico. Gotta watch where you start drawing those lines.

I'm somewhat with suze. If some prefer to stay home and they are happy, how can one critisize that? We love different books, music, food, so not why where we prefer to travel to or..stay at home.

God, suze, that may have very well have been me! :) Love Oaxaca, Puebla, Merida, Queretero. Never been to Cancun, Acapulco, or Puerto Vallarta. Actually, P.V. looks gorgeous in pictures I've seen. Wouldn't mind going there one bit...

Actually, travel-snobs are a favorite target of satirists. Am re-reading "A Room With a View" right now, and it's a hilarious example of this.

You read my mind, that's it. Puerto Vallarta is my home away from home. And it was The Thorn Tree forum where they took me down for it. I have a fondness for Waikiki as well (gasp).

Keep this up Guy you'll hit 100 here!!

suze,

I love PV. It is what it is, but still manages to remain uttely charming, IMO.

You should go to Rome--as a single traveler, you would love it. Lots to do, lots to enjoy while doing nothing.

LOL...Thorn Tree. I recently checked them out. Not surprised those tree-huggers (JOKE!!!) would be unhappy with P.V.

Guy18 -- I think it boils down to the fact that a) we're not all the same; b) we all make choices & sacrifices in life and c) we all think that our choices are the best ones for us.

Personally, I have many friends who are childless like me, make more money than me, and yet comment with a "must be nice" when I say I'm going to Europe...again.

Many don't realize that it's cheaper to fly to Paris and spend a week there than it is to go to New York City from here (Denver). Others prefer a tropical setting, and even though I'm only one state away from Mexico -- I've never been there.

In my mind, I figure it's so close, I can go anytime, but for now I want to spend my younger years traveling as far from here as possible while I still have a sturdy immune system and good knees.

While I would LOVE to see people travel more, and I do encourage people by telling them as much as they want to listen about my exploits, some people are just meant to be homebodies.

I try to look on the bright side: it makes the lines shorter and the sights less crowded once I get there. 'Cause I'm GOING ;)

Jules

I've found this topic quite interesting to read so I figured I'd add my input as my first post on this Forum. I think Muck's initial response summed things up great. It's really down to how a person's wired and what their priorities are. I can relate to h2babe's response. I find myself downsizing and eliminating clutter. Rather than accumulating too much stuff, I spend extra income on experiences...namely travel and concerts.

Sure, there are benefits of both domestic and international travel. On a personal level, I find that internation travel invigorates me and makes me feel more complete as a person. Traveling abroad may not fill a void for everyone, but I feel all the better for it in terms of broadening my horizons and opening myself up to experiences that I would otherwise never experience here in the U.S.

I know it's only my opinion, but I sometimes feel like this country gets too mired in it's own affairs and forgets about the other plus or minus 6 billion people on the planet. Traveling helps me escape this.

99... 100!

#101...good thread...Guy, I don't hold you in contempt for even hinting at contemptuosness...I suppose it's just an honest wonderment on your part. I've thought about it over the years..probably more years that anyone else who has posted...I've been steadily traveling as an independent traveler for well over 55 years...I love it..my wife loves it equally well...so who cares why friends and neighbors don't travel!? It's crowded enough on airline flights!
"To each his own" as the saying goes..or as in Italy .."saucisse his own"..
Keep on truckin' Guy..so shall I.

Stu T.

I didn't become a travel fanatic until I was in my '50's. My first trip out of the country was to France, starting at Paris, then driving to the coast at Honfleur, down te coast of Normandy, accross the Loire and back up to Paris.

That trip absolutely knocked my socks off. I simply had no idea until then what a beautiful and fascinating country France was. Later would come England, Wales, Germany, Italy, Spain, New York City, and, for heaven's sake, Charleston, South Carolina - a marvelous place. NO IDEA! For a long time after, I puzzled over what had been my impediment to travel, why had I had no interest in it previously?

First of all, I didn't have the internet back in those pre-travel days, so I had no idea that travel could be affordable. I would get a knot in my stomach imagining the wad of money it would take.

Secondly, I had not had particularly happy experience with travel, conjuring up memories of pedal-to-the-medal blasts down I-5 to southern California ,with my then-husband, punctuated by stops at Denney's for a hurried meal, or at a sterile motel along the freeway to sleep as a last resort when we started seeing double from fatigue. For many people, prior inexperience with joyful, truly free and creative travel keeps them reluctant, as it did me. It was also, importantly, about a lack of control.

I sympathize with you over starting a thread you'd like nothing better than to obliterate at some point during a heated dialog. I've done that myself. (Try criticizing Spanish cuisine sometime, if you think the discussion was hot here.) The cure for me was to eventually swear off Fodors for a few days until the thread inevitably sunk mercifully to the bottom of the forum.

See you on the road!

MaryFran -- My Mom and Aunt are both in their 60s and in the past few years have finally gotten the travel bug. They've been on a cruise together, traveled to Mexico with one of my brothers, to Paris with me, and to New York to visit another brother, all in the past couple of years.

My Mom travelled a bit more when we were younger, but the big change I see is in my Aunt, who's whole world view is changing now that she's really seeing it.

They are traveling like crazy now just to try and get all they want to see in before they get too frail. Both have problem knees, but they still go. I say "better late than never!"

Jules

I am enjoying reading everything on this thread. Guy - it is my experience that the people who spend money for show do go on vacation, but it's often not to places I would choose. Super expensive cruises, to Las Vegas, first class all the way, all-inclusive resorts where they put their children into the babysitting service all day, etc. I figure if more people traveled like that, there would be less people in the places that *I* want to go!

I do get baffled about what types of things can "set people off" like Guy's post obviously did. I recall a woman who posted a looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnggg trip report about traveling with her "friends" to Italy. She was very contemptious (sp?) of her friends, who apparently, among all of them, had no redeeming qualities. Everyone seemed to find the post funny and loved it. But poor Guy here says something similiar, making comments about people who travel differently than him, and all heck breaks loose.

And I have noticed, especially in certain travel magazines it's not OK to go "where everybody goes". Their philosophy is that you have to travel to most remote places or hike the most out of the way trails. I lost respect for one magazine when they recommended skipping Yosemite Valley b/c of the crowds. Yes, it is crowded, often maddeningly so, but to miss Yosemite Valley is to miss one of the most beautiful places on the planet. That's bad advice, (in my opinion, of course)!!

Thanks, karens, for understanding my intent. (Although I must admit that every time I see this thread pop up, I give a little sigh...) I enjoyed your mentioning the extravagant Las Vegas vacations that so many people whom I know are into. It just sounds dreadful to me. Does it make the people who like to vacation this way BAD? Of course not, but it has very little to do with the type of vacation I like to take.

Guy - I'm sorry to add more to this thread (esp. after your last post),but I am totally speechless that this thread has created the brew ha ha it has, after just finishing reading the "I can't believe I saw this..." thread. I can't recall when I've read more prejudiced statements in one place before, and apparently, it is great fun to say stuff like, "by far the worst are the Japanese". I didn't find that thread fun at all, but totally depressing.

Now I could understand pointing out the crazy things we've all seen (or unfortunately, did ourselves!), but the underlying biases and prejudices in so many of the posts I found disturbing.

I'm still trying to figure this out. It's bad for Guy question why some people don't travel, but it's totally fine to judge people b/c they are Japanese, or American or German? What am I missing here?!

It was my use of "pity" and "contempt" that got people angry. They took me literally, and I can't really blame them.

As I pointed out in this thread, there was yet another thread ("Too many Americans") full of national and ethnic stereotypes that seemed to garner less outcry than my, as one post-er called it, "honest wonderment."

Jules 4je7 said:

"we all think that our choices are the best ones for us."

The trouble and discord comes when posters really are saying "we all think that our choices are the best for everyone else".

This occurs everytime a poster asks about a tour or visiting a number of places in a limited period of time.

Guy18's original post is the epitome of this kind of thinking. And I say that in spite of his/her numerous disclaimers.

I know this post belongs more on the other thread, but I think the problem arises when we observe certain (usually negative) national characteristics - traits that a particular group may TEND to display more than another - and go on predict that ALL members of that group will behave according to one's stereotype. One is not necessarily prejudice (pre-judging), the other is.

I can't see what's wrong with reporting on an observed phenomenon as long as it's balanced comment. For example, Japanese people (in tour groups) may tend to display an unusual degree of insensitivity in certain situations. I've heard of this happening at the remains of the USS Arizona (?) at Pearl Harbor. At the same time, many Western tourists behave inappropriately in Buddhist temples in Asia. At the same time, the Japanese are almost invariably polite, courteous and helpful to visitors to their own country. If I can mention one I should be able to mention the other, as long as I'm not motivated by malice. It might even help to fix the problem.

An analogy - there's an ongoing debate in my country regarding the prevalence of certain types of crime within particular ethnic groups. It's all anecdotal, because statistics either aren't kept or if they are, aren't released. This is because some people believe that even talking about the subject may fan hostility towards those groups. Others claim that keeping us in ignorance is worse, because it prevents the identification of problems and solutions; even worse, it's counterproductive because it allows wild exaggerations of the problem to be broadcast by right-wing shock jocks and believed by those who know no better. I recognise that the former view has a grain of validity, but I hate having discussion stifled because it might offend somebody.

I'm offended every hour of the day by what's going on in the world. If my government was worried about offending me they'd have resigned years ago.

And Neil, What's especially nice about travelling in Australia is one can hardly ever be innappropriate, eh

Andrew

I really wish that I could live my everyday (non-travel) life in the same way I approach things when I am traveling... For example,

I'd have a much better attitude, I'd make the most out of every second, I'd be friendly, adventurous, and open-minded, I'd look for something special to appreciate in every situation, I'd be much more polite, I'd be quick to recognize how stupid it is to be upset about something trivial when after all, the important thing is that I'm in ________.

Seems like one of the things I like about traveling is that I become a much more decent and balanced person. Would be great if I could sustain that beyond my "vacation".

"the Japanese are almost invariably polite, courteous and helpful to visitors to their own country"

Except, of course, to the extent that they post signs on their business establishments denying admittance or refusing service to non-Japanese. In most western countries that behavior would violate the law. In Japan it is apparently legal.

...and apparently, some are fault-finding, insufferable bores both at home and abroad...

(toungue in cheek, couldn't resist)

Interesting to me, when we first moved overseas, I expected to encounter the "Americans don't seem to leave their country, how silly/what a pity/how stupid" attitude here in Europe.

I've realized since moving here, though, that we are actually harder on Americans who don't travel than the Europeans I have met here.

The most common response I get when I mention the lack of travel to people here is: "There is so much to see and do in your country. It is perfectly understandable that people prefer to travel there." Evidently, the proximity and variety make this issue a no-brainer.

Personally, I'm glad to have this opportunity to live and travel here, but DH and I also took epic road trips in North America before we left. Many, many, many jewels on both sides of the Atlantic. When we are planning our family trips in the future, I know which continent we will explore first!

Pity-Feeling of tenderness aroused by person's distress or suffering. Contempt-Act, mental attitude of despising. Despising-Look down upon. I can't feel pity for a Lexus owner. I envy them. I don't look down on those with unlimited funds. I envy them. I suspect that, that group daily live the life that I as poor traveller seek a few days of my year.

You know, unlimited funds seems really fun and carefree, but every social situation has its own unique set of problems. So, saying that you envy their resources is just you analyzing your own problem set and thinking that they would disappear had you access to what they do. But then, other problems would arise and there you would go thinking "Ah, to be middle class. . ." The first time you travel with bodyguards, let me tell you, is a humbling experience.

Now, just to claire-ify, I am not of the insanely wealthy, but have had a few travel experiences of that nature because of who I am visiting. Not only did I return from those places without being able to say I had actually seen them, but I got a completely skewed view of what goes on there.

The food, though, was delicious.

And the gardens, too, if I remember correctly :)

Claire, I am getting a very distinct picture of you from your various posts. You are quite the playgirl, it seems. Lucky you!

Guy, I am all kinds of things. I can play because I work. I can work because I can work it. And she who is always serious can have some serious fun.

Playgirl maybe, but never a centerfold.

As a child, I grew up in NJ, about 5 miles from the George Washington Bridge, which was (to me) the entrance into NYC. My mother used to take us there to see the museums, the zoo, to go shopping at Macy's (and go to see their Thanksgiving Day Parade) among other things. She also took us on trips to Niagara Falls and Washington DC. We didn't go to many other places, because frankly, we were poor, and just didn't have the money to do it. But the concept of going places excited me, and I believe that's why I'm in the travel business to this day. One of the things that amazed me as a teenager, was that people I went to high school with had never, ever been into NYC...all of 5 miles away. When I'd ask them why...they'd say that "Oh, it's the CITY, and it's SO FAR AWAY...".

I came to the conclusion at that time, that there are some people who were meant to go (myself included), and there were some people who were meant to stay. It's not a thing we necessarily choose, it just is what we are.

I like to speculate that those of us with the traveling "gene" are some of the ones who in ancient times walked over the land bridge connecting (what is now) Russia (I think) and Alaska just to "see what's over there". Or walked south to get warmer (though how they knew that I haven't a clue) rather than stay in the cave to stay safe. I could no more stay home and be a non-traveler than I could breathe underwater without my SCUBA tank. It's who I am. It's who we (who participate on this site) are. We were meant to go. "They" were meant to stay. I figure it's just best to Let them.
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