nochblad

I was not criticising the newbee's English.

What I particularly object to is the wish to impose on Italy something they find at home which they think is superior, better or whatever. This seems to crop up most frequently with regard to Starbucks. I think they will have a huge problem in penetrating Italy apart from select locations where there is a degree of international traffic. Principally their problem is an inferior product sold at an outrageous price in comparison with what bars offer in Italy.

Also I dispute that Italy does not accept modernity. On the contrary it is still one of the most creative and inventive countries in the world. Consider the modern architecture, the fashion industry, the vast number of modern artists etc. In business there are many world leaders but mostly in specialized fields (e.g. Brembo brakes) so due to their specialization or size are not widely known to the general public.

In supermarket opening hours, for example, there is far greater flexibility than in Germany and even the UK.

kerouac

I would think that the Starbucks marketing staff just cannot figure out how to deal with Italians going into fits of hysterical laughter when seeing the ridiculous Italianesque names they have given the products they sell.

bilboburgler

Having been to a Starbucks once, ( I had tea) I was amused to see that they now want you to give them a name they can write on their cups and call out so you get the right cup.

I understand that the name "Starbucks doesn't pay enough tax" is now a popular name in the UK

nochblad

bilboburger - you are a great contributor to Fodors but you should not use the word cups when referring to Starbucks coffee, at least in the Italy forum.

As you surely know espresso is served in cups which are already warm - espresso machines generally have a space on top for them. In addition, the cup design is an issue of great debate and Illy, for example, has invested a lot of time and money in developping the perfect cup.

What Starbucks offers is just a container.

bilboburgler

noch, you are right (and too kind), I claim my ignorance is down to only using them once.

On the subject of cups, I discovered a beautiful cup in france in 2015 which holds two espresso full shots, it fits perfectly in the palm of one hand so you don't have to do the whole pinky thing and had me giggling with delight (not by illy which is not a name to conjure with in the UK) more for the hand feel than its contents. Since you have reminded me I have found a similar https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=es...cYvmrjweFGM%3A

I've also played around with different glasses for different wines ( I hold a Diploma in wine tasting for my sins) and have concluded any "results" are bogus. The international tasting glass is the best to use, followed (for fun) by the same in black glass

nochblad

bilboburgler - the first time I ever tasted Starbucks coffee was in Dublin (Harcourt Street corder Adelaide Road). Quite disgusting. Then I discovered - just across the road - The Art of Coffee. Far superior without the pretence.

The hardest thing outside of Italy is to convince the barman - or whatever he/she should be called - to limit the amount of water in the cup. Esentially an espresso should fill half a cup or even less. A ristretto is about a quarter of a cup. The machines can be regulated so frequently outside of Italy the quantity of water is greater than in an Italian espresso. Often I have been met with incredulity when I have asked the barman to pull away the cup when the liquid stream was still running.

Wine tasting - you have opened up a whole new field! If you are in the UK one of the greatest opportunities of wine tasting are the pre-auction tastings at Christies and Sothebys.

I am not sure what the situation is now but in the early seventies I went to a number of pre-auction tastings. My highlights were the opportunity to taste a wine of the 1800's - yes, for free at Christies in King Street. As well as a tasting of the 1970 vintage. I had the opportunity to taste all of the top growths including Mouton, plus Cheval Blanc, Ausone etc. I had the opportunity to taste the differences between the various Chateaux - not just read about them.

annhig

To [misquote] the divine Oscar - I have never been in a Starbucks!

Nochblad - I think that you underestimate some UK baristas - I have certainly had expressos here that take up less than half of the cup and have a good crema on top as well.

nochblad

annhig - I would agree but not in a Starbucks or a Costa. But as you say - some UK baristas. And especially harder to find outside of London.

annhig

And especially harder to find outside of London.>>

some have even made it to Cornwall:

http://www.westbriton.co.uk/Cornish-...ail/story.html

Sadly I haven't been able to find out if they repeated the competition in 2014 or 2015.

kerouac

I have to admit that I have never set foot in a Starbucks either -- or any of the copies of same, of which there are quite a few in France (Columbus Café, etc.).

I am just not much of a coffee drinker.

PalenQ

Starbucks has put a lot of emphasis on making sure the poor peasants in central America who pick the beans, etc get a decent wage and professes to only buy from sustainable producers, etc - not sure of exact details but do Italian caffes pay the same attention to such matters?

You may not like Starbucks but to diss it as worthless coffee is pure food snobbism IMO - as exemplified to the hilt by nochblad and others.

Starbucks has put a lot lot lot of money into perfecting the beans they use and brewing technique - folks who say Starbucks coffee is the dregs obviously have never ever tasted Starbucks primo coffees, whose beans are also a favorite with many to make at home.

Wonder if the OP will check back in?

StCirq

Starbucks is overpriced, burnt coffee the world over. I will never understand why anyone would choose to buy it in Europe, or much of anywhere else, where there is already so much actually good coffee. I don't care what their employee/supplier practices are - their coffee sucks. I'll pay a local to make me a good coffee anytime.

PalenQ

StCirq- so you've been to Starbucks and tasted their coffees - have you seen the thronged Starbucks all over Europe, including Paris - you think all those folks are clueless dolts? Well I think that term may more belong to you than them.

Overpriced maybe but burnt - that is just not true - you exemplify the coffee/food snob I was talking about above. Probably never been in a Starbucks to boot?

You do not get to be the world's premier coffee seller if you have just burnt coffee - again next time you get out of Dordogneshire and into the real France look at just how crowded those Starbucks are with mainly young French folks in them.

Cheers! Happy New Year - your next Starbucks' cuppa is on moi.

BTW I've had many a mediocre cafe coffee in France.

kleeblatt

All McDonald's restaurants in Switzerland have revamped their interior design to include a McCafe. They've also reduced their menu selection by omitting all McWraps. I suspect this move was made because McDonald's wants to compete directly with Starbucks.

Just last week, I was in a Chur McDonald's where I stated my dissatisfaction about the lack of McWraps. The employee admitted that many other customers had complained as well. The coffee, on the other hand, was satisfactory although the cheesecake was disappointingly bland.

annhig

I can't speak for Starbucks' offerings but I always find Costa's coffee very harsh, presumably because they use robusta beans, rather than arabica, which are dearer. It could also have something to do with the way they are roasted, but not being an expert, I just know that I don't like it.

PalenQ

The coffee, on the other hand, was satisfactory although the cheesecake was disappointingly bland>

Mcds has put a lot of effort into making good Italian-like coffee, right from machines used in Italy to the method of brewing, etc.

PalenQ

Italians are worried about crappy coffee with Starbucks? Well maybe Italian food snobs should look into the Mafia's intrusion into the food sector - as a Sixty Minutes segment detailed last night on just how the Italian Mafioso have a huge presence in the food sector - from silently owning thousands of restaurants and also things like Olive Oil, which the segment dwelt on - saying 50% of the Extra Virgin Olive Oil sold in Italy does not meet the criteria and 75-80% of that Italian Extra Virgin Olive Oil is not really worthy of having the extra virgin label.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minut...ia-food-fraud/

So besides being worried about Starbucks somehow tarnishing the country's food image perhaps Italians should take a better look at how their Mafioso is doing damage to the ballyhooed Italian mania for 'slow food'!

raincitygirl

That was interesting PalenQ, and something I have heard about before. I think Italians are plenty worried about the Mafia for many reasons and the fake food is a big one.

I don't know if they are worried about Starbucks tarnishing their food image so much as wondering why they would need it. Young Italians might flock to it at first as it would be different and American and perceived as therefore being cool maybe. But for the most part there is good coffee everywhere there already so why would you want Starbucks in Italy?

In Australia Starbucks was a big flop because they have such a well established coffee culture and really you are spoiled for choice there for an excellent coffee, something I really miss. Australian teens liked Starbucks but nobody else did.

I am not a big fan of Starbucks but will go there once in a while now since they brought in the flat white which they got from Australia, and it is quite good at Starbucks.

PalenQ

Starbucks is yes much more than coffee - it's the stmosphere - young folks like to sit around reading or studying- not sure the typical small Italian caffe is so conducive to that.

gooresh

Hello everyone,

Yes, it was my first post.
Yes, I'm reading Fodors for a while.
Yes, English is not my mother tongue (Thanks for having noticed that and raised it as a problem...) I'd like to know how many languages are you speaking and writing..
Anyway, again: Happy new year (In case you did not read all my post..) In my country there are certain rules of good manners.
And Yes, it will be my last post.

From a dude migrant who spent 3 years of his life in Italy and who maybe is now living in your own country... Who knows...

Have nice writing.. In English.
PS: I like your language, but stop to bash anyone who is not fully English spoken. The migrant speaks 4 languages.

So bye.