No smoking in Paris restaurants - is it working?
Jan 27th, 2008, 08:17 AM
#121
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cherrybomb,
I am sorry about your disease and that you have misinterpreted my actions and thoughts as you seem to love to do with people. Yes, this is the internet and everything you write is PUBLIC !! ( May I use one of your favorite phrases?): DOH!
If I did not care, I would not be wasting my time, answering this and trying to help you by leaving some medpub abstracts/articles that might educate you. ( You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink).
It was not used to say you caused your illness,( that is your nonsense) but just the irony that someone who was so full of rage and disinformation in this thread, had a condition where anyone with half a brain would have immediately given up this stupid, destructive habit and should be first in line to encourage LESS smoking and second hand smoke.
It seems absurd that you would rant on about food ( something I know a lot about and have been studying for 20 years since I had my own health crisis related to smoking and grew & ate my own certified organic food year round ) and poison spraying ( something I am also against).....YET see no connection to the daily poisoning of your death sticks! DOH!
Within seconds after a person inhales cigarette smoke, about 4,000 toxic substances are absorbed into the bloodstream. They then travel to every cell in the body. Thus, smoking doesn't just affect your lungs and heart -- it affects everything. DOH!
Does it really make sense that anyone with ANY disease, let alone one that has many studies showing a connection, would be an adamant smoker??? It reminds me of the picture of the guy with oral cancer oozing out of his mouth grotesquely while puffing on another cancer stick. DOH!
A 2007 one I left said:
"Metanalysis of six informative studies show significantly elevated odds or rate ratios, ranging from 1.22 to 1.51, depending on the method of analysis, confirming that the risk of MS is increased for those who smoke prior to disease onset, as measured by commencement of symptoms."
Smoking kills one-half of all people who smoke!! So you are so proud of this death causing addiction because.....????? Oh yeah..."its pleasurable" you said. That is what heroin addicts say as well.
Yes, you certainly have the right to kill yourself slowly ( or not so slowly,plenty die in their 30's from smoking) and be proud about your destructive addiction. It is just sad and that you also do not mind poisoning others on your way out with your cancerous second hand smoke.
I think you have to also own up to your own culpability in your ugly rhetoric here. You have said the ugliest things on this thread and the only one to use the F word. It appears you like to throw dramatic and false "bombs" at others ,but when someone calls you on it, you whine as a poor, innocent victim.
Meanwhile your trip report was already delayed before this thread started, but I guess it is more fun to play victim & the blame game. LOL. You just have a LOT of growing up to do.
There is a big difference between diet issues ( I have been mostly vegan without process foods for 20 years) and smoking, which has been endlessly repeated to you here....IT DOES NOT KILL OTHER PEOPLE! Second hand smoke DOES!
"To put the impact of smoking into perspective, it may help to consider six other major causes of death in the United States: alcohol abuse, drug abuse, AIDS, motor vehicle crashes, homicide, and suicide. All of these are important problems. All of them kill substantial numbers of people every year. Yet all six of these causes combined account for only half as many deaths each year as smoking does." DOH!
I do believe Cowboy said he was a smoker and Travelgourmet and he had the typical European style ( and some American) ignorance that "nothing wrong with it" head-in-sand, river-called-denial-thinking that is just not based on REALITY.
In fact, all the pro smoking defenders are ones that have a belief system that there really is no such thing as second hand smoke harm or it is not that bad. Travelgourmet thought I should let my young child play in a neighbors smoke filled house despite all the evidence about how that can harm a child for their entire life. DOH!
"The evidence is now "indisputable" that secondhand smoke is an "alarming" public health hazard, responsible for tens of thousands of premature deaths among nonsmokers each year, Surgeon General Richard H. Carmona said in 2006 "Smoke-free environments are the only approach that protects nonsmokers from the dangers of secondhand smoke.""I am here to say the debate is over: the science is clear.......Since then (1986 original report), hundreds of studies have indicated that the harm caused by secondhand smoke is far greater than earlier believed.There is no safe level of secondhand smoke, and even brief exposure can cause harm, especially for people suffering from heart or respiratory diseases. It accounted for 46,000 premature deaths from heart disease and 3,000 premature deaths from cancer last year.Children are especially vulnerable to the poisons in secondhand smoke"( NYT -left yesterday to help educate travelgourmet and others.)
I am all for different "belief systems" but when you are just spouting crap that is based totally AGAINST all & overwhelming scientific evidence. Come on! DOH!
Please get informed smokers and those who support their addiction ...your "make believe" is hurting everyone.
AND studies show that this kind of false belief based on nothing, is exactly why there is a bigger smoking epidemic in Europe still ( remember the study that I posted showing the difference? Too much of European society condones it and more are ill informed as many of the pro smoking crowd here demonstrated perfectly).
Thanks to St Cirq, yours and Travelgourmet's posts, I understand the "delusional thinking"( ie second hand smoke is not bad etc), but think it is all the more important reason to get the CORRECT information out there. It is not just a nasty, stinky addiction that is killing you with each puff...it maims and kills innocent people daily!
If just one person wakes up, it has been worth my efforts here. It is a help forum after all isn't it and it is clear that it is a travel topic that MANY are interested in. Many topics wander a bit, that is normal.
BTW ,if you had a hep B vax around the time of your symptoms arriving with MS, you might want to look into that research as there have been thousands of cases of connections between autoimmune diseases and that vaccination or booster, including some with MS and or MS like symptoms.
I hope you use this as a wake up call to really get your self healthy. Listen to your doctor who urges you to stop smoking, other wise you sabotage every treatment and good thing that you do.
Put your anger at the tobacco companies that you help to get rich as you go down hill with each puff, instead of the non or reformed smokers who tell you the truth. The choice is always yours, but as I tell my daughter, a life is built on lots of little choices, so a wise person always tries to make the most optimal choice. Good luck!
I am sorry about your disease and that you have misinterpreted my actions and thoughts as you seem to love to do with people. Yes, this is the internet and everything you write is PUBLIC !! ( May I use one of your favorite phrases?): DOH!
If I did not care, I would not be wasting my time, answering this and trying to help you by leaving some medpub abstracts/articles that might educate you. ( You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink).
It was not used to say you caused your illness,( that is your nonsense) but just the irony that someone who was so full of rage and disinformation in this thread, had a condition where anyone with half a brain would have immediately given up this stupid, destructive habit and should be first in line to encourage LESS smoking and second hand smoke.
It seems absurd that you would rant on about food ( something I know a lot about and have been studying for 20 years since I had my own health crisis related to smoking and grew & ate my own certified organic food year round ) and poison spraying ( something I am also against).....YET see no connection to the daily poisoning of your death sticks! DOH!
Within seconds after a person inhales cigarette smoke, about 4,000 toxic substances are absorbed into the bloodstream. They then travel to every cell in the body. Thus, smoking doesn't just affect your lungs and heart -- it affects everything. DOH!
Does it really make sense that anyone with ANY disease, let alone one that has many studies showing a connection, would be an adamant smoker??? It reminds me of the picture of the guy with oral cancer oozing out of his mouth grotesquely while puffing on another cancer stick. DOH!
A 2007 one I left said:
"Metanalysis of six informative studies show significantly elevated odds or rate ratios, ranging from 1.22 to 1.51, depending on the method of analysis, confirming that the risk of MS is increased for those who smoke prior to disease onset, as measured by commencement of symptoms."
Smoking kills one-half of all people who smoke!! So you are so proud of this death causing addiction because.....????? Oh yeah..."its pleasurable" you said. That is what heroin addicts say as well.
Yes, you certainly have the right to kill yourself slowly ( or not so slowly,plenty die in their 30's from smoking) and be proud about your destructive addiction. It is just sad and that you also do not mind poisoning others on your way out with your cancerous second hand smoke.
I think you have to also own up to your own culpability in your ugly rhetoric here. You have said the ugliest things on this thread and the only one to use the F word. It appears you like to throw dramatic and false "bombs" at others ,but when someone calls you on it, you whine as a poor, innocent victim.
Meanwhile your trip report was already delayed before this thread started, but I guess it is more fun to play victim & the blame game. LOL. You just have a LOT of growing up to do.
There is a big difference between diet issues ( I have been mostly vegan without process foods for 20 years) and smoking, which has been endlessly repeated to you here....IT DOES NOT KILL OTHER PEOPLE! Second hand smoke DOES!
"To put the impact of smoking into perspective, it may help to consider six other major causes of death in the United States: alcohol abuse, drug abuse, AIDS, motor vehicle crashes, homicide, and suicide. All of these are important problems. All of them kill substantial numbers of people every year. Yet all six of these causes combined account for only half as many deaths each year as smoking does." DOH!
I do believe Cowboy said he was a smoker and Travelgourmet and he had the typical European style ( and some American) ignorance that "nothing wrong with it" head-in-sand, river-called-denial-thinking that is just not based on REALITY.
In fact, all the pro smoking defenders are ones that have a belief system that there really is no such thing as second hand smoke harm or it is not that bad. Travelgourmet thought I should let my young child play in a neighbors smoke filled house despite all the evidence about how that can harm a child for their entire life. DOH!
"The evidence is now "indisputable" that secondhand smoke is an "alarming" public health hazard, responsible for tens of thousands of premature deaths among nonsmokers each year, Surgeon General Richard H. Carmona said in 2006 "Smoke-free environments are the only approach that protects nonsmokers from the dangers of secondhand smoke.""I am here to say the debate is over: the science is clear.......Since then (1986 original report), hundreds of studies have indicated that the harm caused by secondhand smoke is far greater than earlier believed.There is no safe level of secondhand smoke, and even brief exposure can cause harm, especially for people suffering from heart or respiratory diseases. It accounted for 46,000 premature deaths from heart disease and 3,000 premature deaths from cancer last year.Children are especially vulnerable to the poisons in secondhand smoke"( NYT -left yesterday to help educate travelgourmet and others.)
I am all for different "belief systems" but when you are just spouting crap that is based totally AGAINST all & overwhelming scientific evidence. Come on! DOH!
Please get informed smokers and those who support their addiction ...your "make believe" is hurting everyone.
AND studies show that this kind of false belief based on nothing, is exactly why there is a bigger smoking epidemic in Europe still ( remember the study that I posted showing the difference? Too much of European society condones it and more are ill informed as many of the pro smoking crowd here demonstrated perfectly).
Thanks to St Cirq, yours and Travelgourmet's posts, I understand the "delusional thinking"( ie second hand smoke is not bad etc), but think it is all the more important reason to get the CORRECT information out there. It is not just a nasty, stinky addiction that is killing you with each puff...it maims and kills innocent people daily!
If just one person wakes up, it has been worth my efforts here. It is a help forum after all isn't it and it is clear that it is a travel topic that MANY are interested in. Many topics wander a bit, that is normal.
BTW ,if you had a hep B vax around the time of your symptoms arriving with MS, you might want to look into that research as there have been thousands of cases of connections between autoimmune diseases and that vaccination or booster, including some with MS and or MS like symptoms.
I hope you use this as a wake up call to really get your self healthy. Listen to your doctor who urges you to stop smoking, other wise you sabotage every treatment and good thing that you do.
Put your anger at the tobacco companies that you help to get rich as you go down hill with each puff, instead of the non or reformed smokers who tell you the truth. The choice is always yours, but as I tell my daughter, a life is built on lots of little choices, so a wise person always tries to make the most optimal choice. Good luck!
Jan 27th, 2008, 12:27 PM
#122
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<So US is somewhere in the middle
Not really, Elina. Had you read the abstract I made that comment about, you might have understood the point better.
Sorry to disappoint you but not all the studies on smoking have taken place in Europe.
Here is a great one showing the extreme damage that can be done from smoke from an outdoor cafe on innocent bystanders and children in only moments:
http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...ng-050907.html
I never said that American is a perfect country ( nor is any country), I just gave a fact that so far they have done better than Europe.
Sweden is the ONLY European nation that has very low rates like that. Certainly there is always room to get better and I can not wait for the day of a smoke free U.S and Europe. But to compare little Sweden or little Greece to the whole of the U.S. is a big distortion.
The figures show (from the CDC) that smoking in the US DECREASED from 42.4% in 1965 to 20.9% in 2004. Since it has gone down regularly and by leaps and bounds, there is lots of reason to believe it is quite a bit lower today in 2008.
This European data is different and only covers from 1996 to 2000, but it is good to see the trends and compare different countries. It shows the U.S. and Sweden almost identical around 18% and MUCH lower than most European countries.
http://www.euromonitor.com/Tobacco_v...cessation_aids
Here are some more out of Europe:
http://www.heartstats.org/datapage.asp?id=4669
We have traveled many miles by vehicle all over Europe for the last 17 months ( more than many Europeans ever do!) and i can tell you that there is a HUGE difference compared to my home state of California ( which encompasses an area bigger than several European countries combined).
I also have taken a 6 month trip from Boston down to Key West Florida, across the southern route to San Diego and up to San Francisco as well as lived in many areas around America and other shorter trips.So I have some experience in many areas, but know my own best of course.
I can not think of ANY area of outdoor cafes that I can walk by in Europe and not smell smoke, but I know tons of places at home where I can do that. I loved also having beaches, parks and parties where there was NO smoking what so ever!!
I would have been mortified to be pregnant in Europe with all the smoke around or have a young baby here. At least in California, we are much more aware of the hazards.
If some one dared light up anywhere near a child or other human beings even outside, TONS of people would immediately ask them to do it away from other human beings. The minority smoker would happily comply.
I hear and see that in Europe, people have not yet come to that point. Even if a whole table of non smokers would prefer the one smoker not to light up, most will not say a word. I have heard from a German friend that it is thought as impolite to say anything, but in California, the smoker is the one who would be seen as the impolite, incorrect one.
It is a BIG difference in attitude. There was recently a worldwide poll by country on global warning and it was funny to read that Europe thought it was a more important issue than smoking and Americans felt just the opposite. I happen to think BOTH are important issues, but I think not enough Europeans really understand how bad smoking is here or how different we see it. There seems to be a "why are you so fussy" attitude towards it in Europe, instead of accepting that it is life threatening behavior.
Now I am not saying that it is like that in every area of the U.S. as I am sure we have pockets of smoking areas just as you have your pocket of less smoking Sweden and California was the first to ban smoking in the US state wide in 1998.
I am sure the inner city area of poor people probably have a much higher proportion than rural, beach California or other places with educated, higher income folks. 85% of Californians do not smoke, but that includes all the poverty, immigrant and inner city pockets, so many areas DO feel like it is 100% non smoking.
Those that do smoke are very aware that most of the public will not tolerate their deathly second hand smoke ( which helps many give up smoking).
The more Europeans get adamant about not accepting life threatening second hand smoke ( even in out door cafes and outside!), the faster the smoking levels will drop and the healthier people will be.
There is still a long way to go for every continent!
Not really, Elina. Had you read the abstract I made that comment about, you might have understood the point better.
Sorry to disappoint you but not all the studies on smoking have taken place in Europe.
Here is a great one showing the extreme damage that can be done from smoke from an outdoor cafe on innocent bystanders and children in only moments:http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...ng-050907.html
I never said that American is a perfect country ( nor is any country), I just gave a fact that so far they have done better than Europe.
Sweden is the ONLY European nation that has very low rates like that. Certainly there is always room to get better and I can not wait for the day of a smoke free U.S and Europe. But to compare little Sweden or little Greece to the whole of the U.S. is a big distortion.
The figures show (from the CDC) that smoking in the US DECREASED from 42.4% in 1965 to 20.9% in 2004. Since it has gone down regularly and by leaps and bounds, there is lots of reason to believe it is quite a bit lower today in 2008.
This European data is different and only covers from 1996 to 2000, but it is good to see the trends and compare different countries. It shows the U.S. and Sweden almost identical around 18% and MUCH lower than most European countries.
http://www.euromonitor.com/Tobacco_v...cessation_aids
Here are some more out of Europe:
http://www.heartstats.org/datapage.asp?id=4669
We have traveled many miles by vehicle all over Europe for the last 17 months ( more than many Europeans ever do!) and i can tell you that there is a HUGE difference compared to my home state of California ( which encompasses an area bigger than several European countries combined).
I also have taken a 6 month trip from Boston down to Key West Florida, across the southern route to San Diego and up to San Francisco as well as lived in many areas around America and other shorter trips.So I have some experience in many areas, but know my own best of course.
I can not think of ANY area of outdoor cafes that I can walk by in Europe and not smell smoke, but I know tons of places at home where I can do that. I loved also having beaches, parks and parties where there was NO smoking what so ever!!
I would have been mortified to be pregnant in Europe with all the smoke around or have a young baby here. At least in California, we are much more aware of the hazards.
If some one dared light up anywhere near a child or other human beings even outside, TONS of people would immediately ask them to do it away from other human beings. The minority smoker would happily comply.
I hear and see that in Europe, people have not yet come to that point. Even if a whole table of non smokers would prefer the one smoker not to light up, most will not say a word. I have heard from a German friend that it is thought as impolite to say anything, but in California, the smoker is the one who would be seen as the impolite, incorrect one.
It is a BIG difference in attitude. There was recently a worldwide poll by country on global warning and it was funny to read that Europe thought it was a more important issue than smoking and Americans felt just the opposite. I happen to think BOTH are important issues, but I think not enough Europeans really understand how bad smoking is here or how different we see it. There seems to be a "why are you so fussy" attitude towards it in Europe, instead of accepting that it is life threatening behavior.
Now I am not saying that it is like that in every area of the U.S. as I am sure we have pockets of smoking areas just as you have your pocket of less smoking Sweden and California was the first to ban smoking in the US state wide in 1998.
I am sure the inner city area of poor people probably have a much higher proportion than rural, beach California or other places with educated, higher income folks. 85% of Californians do not smoke, but that includes all the poverty, immigrant and inner city pockets, so many areas DO feel like it is 100% non smoking.
Those that do smoke are very aware that most of the public will not tolerate their deathly second hand smoke ( which helps many give up smoking).
The more Europeans get adamant about not accepting life threatening second hand smoke ( even in out door cafes and outside!), the faster the smoking levels will drop and the healthier people will be.
There is still a long way to go for every continent!
Jan 27th, 2008, 01:21 PM
#125
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 15,770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to the endless lectures here,it would seem that ALL Europeans must be nuts to even have children in such a vile environment.
As a child ,I lived in smoke- filled Europe and guess what : I am, and have always been just fine .
Sure, smoking is not a healthy habit, but getting hysterical about the issue does not seem too healthy either.
Jan 27th, 2008, 02:09 PM
#127
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This post has seemed to head off in the wrong direction, becoming a smoking v non smoking debate. I would like to hear any experiences that answer scdreamer's question of 'has the law changes made any significant difference' ?
Jan 27th, 2008, 02:28 PM
#129
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I visited Greece in September and agree with most here about smoking. The thing that amazed me was the number of eateries with both indoor and outdoor sections that allowed people to smoke inside. Surely encouraging smokers outside and making inside non smoking is so simple and keeps everyone happy ?
Jan 27th, 2008, 04:18 PM
#131
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 36,842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"This post has seemed to head off in the wrong direction, becoming a smoking v non smoking debate. . .'
huh? Did you read the original post? -- ". . the incessant smoking in just about very restaurant we visited." and "I can hardly imagine the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law. . ."
This was not exactly an unbiased question now, was it? It got the responses it clearly was set up to get.
huh? Did you read the original post? -- ". . the incessant smoking in just about very restaurant we visited." and "I can hardly imagine the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law. . ."
This was not exactly an unbiased question now, was it? It got the responses it clearly was set up to get.
Jan 27th, 2008, 04:47 PM
#132
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To NeoPatrick - I'm sorry you feel that I was setting out to get a certain response to my question. I had no desire to start this. I honestly had no idea how inflammatory my comment would be perceived to be. I still don't see that what I wrote was so controversial.
I was in Paris in November. I did notice smokers in all but one restaurant (a non-smoking establishment)- We were staying in a Montmartre neighborhood and had most of our meals at smaller restaurants with tables in close proximity. We were always surrounded by other tables with nearly all other diners chain-smoking throughout the meals. On two different occasions I actually nearly had a nearby lighted cigarette touch my hair.
I did not freak out over the smoking. I didn't care for it, but I realized I was in a different country with different cultural expectations, and I know that is a part of the privilege of being able to travel.
All I did was to describe my experience and to ask on this board a question.
NeoPatrick - It is truly amazing to me how you were able to enter my brain and determine my motives. You should take your show on the road and make yourself some money!
I was in Paris in November. I did notice smokers in all but one restaurant (a non-smoking establishment)- We were staying in a Montmartre neighborhood and had most of our meals at smaller restaurants with tables in close proximity. We were always surrounded by other tables with nearly all other diners chain-smoking throughout the meals. On two different occasions I actually nearly had a nearby lighted cigarette touch my hair.
I did not freak out over the smoking. I didn't care for it, but I realized I was in a different country with different cultural expectations, and I know that is a part of the privilege of being able to travel.
All I did was to describe my experience and to ask on this board a question.
NeoPatrick - It is truly amazing to me how you were able to enter my brain and determine my motives. You should take your show on the road and make yourself some money!
Thread
Original Poster
Forum
Replies
Last Post
nytravellers
Europe
62
Jun 18th, 2010 07:11 AM
