Well, still don´t see why bull running is such an evil thing. Three minutes of a race among runners that can´t even touch them, and if they do, they have to pay heavy fines (so they don´t)? So they are killed later in a bull ring...but it really has not much to do with the previous running in the early morning, it´s a totally separate thing. Again, I understand your concerns and criticisms on bullfights...but not on the bull running. Please watch any video and tell me where you see violence or harm to the animals. Would they prefer to be in the fields, pasturing and grazing? Of course. Like those pigs and chickens that will be later slaughtered in farms, I´m sure they´ll love to be in a meadow talking nonsense to each other.

*sigh*

Here's what The League Against Cruel Sports has to say:

WHAT HAPPENS DURING THE PAMPLONA RUNNING OF THE BULLS?

Each morning many bulls are forced to run a kilometre down the cobblestone streets of the town, chased by cheering participants and spectators. Once released, the bulls are frightened with gun shots and kicked and hit by jeering spectators, often down concrete or cobbled streets which they slip and slide on, occasionally suffering broken legs and other injuries in the process.

The bulls are chased into a holding pen at the bull ring, to await their torture and deaths at the bullfight, called in Spanish ‘corrida de toros’ or simply ‘corrida’, that takes place later that evening.

So you see, this isn't three minutes of a harmless run for the animals, this is a frightening experience for the animals. Is it natural for a bull to run through cobbled streets? Throw in a crowd of thousands jeeering, chasing, punching and kicking and you claim that this is acceptable? To state that the animals can't be touched is absurd, there's countless footage online showing exactly that! What about the animals that slip on the cobblestones and injure themselves, are you happy with that? Is that part of the enjoyment of the spectacle? So what if the slaughter doesn't take place immediately afterwards, you're just prolonging their awful fate, it's not separate, it's all part of the festival and to claim it isn't is disingenuous.

Would they prefer to be in the fields grazing? Absolutely. Would they also prefer the option of their inevitable slaughter to be via a bolt to the head or a long, torturous, savage, painful torment?

And probably were then as draft animals in traditional ways.

I wonder if you´ve ever -ever- seen a real video of the actual running of the bulls in the past years, or simply believe what others write about it.

Just a few comments:

- Each morning many bulls are forced to run a kilometre down the cobblestone streets of the town: no, they run UP the cobblestone streets of the town, I guess nothing wrong with it. 875mt, to be exact.

- chased by cheering participants and spectators. Once released, the bulls are frightened with gun shots: this, simply, is NOT true, noboby shoots any gun.

- and kicked and hit by jeering spectators: again, NOT true, they can´t be kicked or hit, less by the spectators, separated by a wooden barrier (but in what human way can you kich an animal that weighs 1500kg??)

- often down concrete or cobbled streets which they slip and slide on, occasionally suffering broken legs and other injuries in the process: yes, this is true, they slide occassionally but broken legs is not a common thing at all, 99% of the time the bulls get to the bullring on their feet, unharmed.

- The bulls are chased into a holding pen at the bull ring, to await their torture and deaths at the bullfight: again, misinformation. 6 bulls will take part in the bullfitght later in the evening (with or without running previously, that´s why I say that it´s got nothing to do with it, totally independent things), and the other 6 are domesticated bulls that will NOT take part in any bullfight.

Again, I´d search for reliable sources of information, not only those that express biased opinions. This year it´s been suspended, I just can´t care enough about it, but it´s kind of annoying when somebody, from abroad, misinformed, with biased information, tries to teach lessons. Quoting PETA´s article that was mixing the running of the bulls with sexual harassment what, to be honest, what moved me to step in further.

Absolutely, no doubt about it but they're no longer used in those traditional ways and even then, some traditional ways were still cruel to some extent.

However, sending a donkey up and down steep cobbled streets repeatedly all day, every day, carrying loads far in excess of what is comfortable or acceptable and beaten with sticks if it does not comply is not an example of a draft animal being used in traditional ways.

I have no issue with animals used in traditional farming methods as long as their work is justified, safe, capable and that they are treated well.

Ah so this is what it's about is it? Hurt nationalistic pride? My nationality has nothing to do with it, I'l criticise animal cruelty wherever it occurs whether it's camel rides in Morocco, dolphin shows in Florida, elephant rides in Thailand or fox hunting in the UK. I'd never defend animal cruelty occurring in the UK simply because someone from abroad was to criticise the practice.

You asked whether I've seen any videos of bulls being harmed whilst running or spectators and participants hitting the bulls, the answer is yes, many! You then try to justify such actions by claiming an animal of such weight wouldn't be harmed by a human kick. Ah, that's ok....so we can chase, torment, hit and kick bulls because they're big and heavy and won't feel it? I'm afraid your true colours are beginning to shine. There is no justification whatsoever to treat animals in this way. You don't like PETA and The League of Cruel Sports exposing the truth, are you suggesting that they're lying.

Here's a tip, don't take criticism of bull running or bull fighting personally simply because you're Spanish. I've been to Spain more times than I can count, I know the general attitude towards bullfighting but I don't generalise an entire country on the basis of a handful of outdated and brutal practices that are supported my the minority. The point of my initial post was to encourage education for tourists who consider The Running of The Bulls as a 'bucket list' event because far too many people do not consider its link and precursor to bullfighting. Far too often I see posts on forums such as this asking for advice on seeing a bullfight or how to get involved in a bull run so I see it as only right that I highlight the reality to those who view it through rose tinted glasses.

FWIW at this late stage, my comment didn't have anything to do with the history/tradition of the running of the bulls, which admittedly I know virtually nothing about, although I instinctively associated it with the transhumance. My comment was meant to point out that I have always found the throngs of tourists attracted to this event to look particularly demented.

At least, you should admit that the references you are posting are not correct. No gun shots, people don´t (DON´T) kick the animals (how?? if they are behind the fences and the animals pass at high speed metres from them!! Moreover, they don´t let get close to hurt them, they are going to the bullfight later and have to be in PERFECT condition (sadly, but true)). I´m not talking about bullfighting but you seem to insist on it, whatever I say. We are talking about the running of the bulls, where a) there´s no gun shooting, b) people don´t hit, torment or kick the bulls, c) there´s no harmed bulls d) it´s not "the" precursor to the bullfight (you may ignore that the running of the bulls is quite "new" and the bullfights were celebrated in Pamplona long before, and e) half of the bulls are domesticated and previously trained to run this itinerary, to protect the other bulls and the persons running. So, if you have a particular fight against bullfighting, that´s perfectly OK by me and I can support your arguments against it. But I can´t care less about what PETA or any other organization says about the running of the bulls, it´s way too biased and yes, they are lying. I just demand truth and justice in arguments, and you haven´t used any in your exposition above.

And just wondering what videos have you watched...

Totally agree with this. My dad used to go to the running of the bulls in the Pre-Hemingway era, and it was just a way for locals and neighboring regions to have an enjoyment, respecting the bulls and the local ways. Now it´s just an overvalued festival, where many foreigners go to get drunk in a party environment.

I simply posted the information provided by PETA and The League of Cruel Sports, as a result of further research it would appear that PETA is more reliable on the accuracy front, no mention of gunshots but rather the firework rocket that is featured in many videos.

The people doing the kicking and hitting, tail pulling etc are not the spectators bravely hiding behind fences but the participants of the run itself, mostly tourists.

I don't know how you can consider a bull being chased by hordes of people, surrounded by thousands of screaming and baying crowds, being made to run on ground it's not suited to as not akin to torment. Do you think the bulls enjoy it?

Whatever you claim, the day ends with bulls from the run being slaughtered in the bullring, that's an irrefutable fact. I couldn't give a damn about when or where it started, it's irrelevant.

<<I couldn't give a damn about when or where it started, it's irrelevant.>>

Well, that's a pretty damning statement, and a startling one coming from someone on a travel board, where presumably participants enjoy visiting other cultures, among other things precisely to give a damn about, and understand, where and when and why things started.

What's really irrelevant to me is what PETA thinks about much of anything.

If enjoying animal cruelty because it's part of a country's culture is acceptable to you then that's quite shocking. Personally I can enjoy visiting a country without feeling the need to endorse barbaric practices or this really a case of virtue signalling?

>>>USAns<<<

The term is "American." I'm surprised someone using this asinine expression isn't fully on board with the idiocies of PETA.

I´m sorry but America refers to all the countries from Canada to Argentina, at least in all the atlas and world maps that I know. The name of the country you call America is United States of America, not America. CAnada is an American country, as well as Honduras. Then you have North America, Central America and South America. It´s not an asinine expresion, in Spain we call you "estadounidenses" (also "americanos", incorrectly), and that´s what I wanted to express with USAns (as Texans). Much sorry if you don´t like it.

"The firework rocket", one, marks the starting of the race, it´s not there to harm or scare the bulls. You said gun shots. Your point of view is too radical, sorry but don´t agree with most of what you say.

The firework may not be intended to scare the bulls but it does. Just because the result of something is an unintended consequence doesn't make it right or acceptable.

I did not say 'gun shots' the article stated 'gun shots'. It's a moot point and you're picking up on it in an attempt to detract from the rest of the argument for which there is documentary evidence.

How is my point of view radical? If regarding the torment and cruel treatment of animals is radical then I'd hate to see what your interpretation of 'normal' is.

As you said above, quite patronizingly, *sigh*. I wonder how do you know that the firework (PETA calls it gun shot and you copied and pasted this info as correct, but as this is not correct, I can correctly assume the rest of the info provided by PETA is not correct either, correct?) scares the bulls. Have you asked them? You see them scared at that very moment? And I´d simply love to see a video of any recent Sanfermines where you can see people kicking and hitting (or harming) the bulls during the running. You may not know it´s strictly forbidden as they are valuable assets for the bullfight later in the evening and they can´t be harmed. Yes, you may criticize the bullfight and I may agree with you. You can be (of course!) against this "running of the bulls" tradition for whatever reasons, but they should be true. Your point of view is radical a) because you use false arguments to support it, b) you say the bulls are treated cruelty and with torment, something that is not true (obviously, depending on what your level of sensibility to cruelty and torment is).

The League of Cruel Sports referred to a gun shot, PETA refers to it as a firework.

Does it scare the bulls? As fireworks demonstrably scare most animals it is a fair assumption that it scares the bulls. Your question about "have I asked them if it scares them" could easily be asked in respect of your argument. Quite frankly, the whole scenario is highly likely to be scary for any animal, it doesn't take a genius to understand that.

You asked whether there is any footage of bulls being hit, have you watched the videos on the PETA page? Have you not seen the video where a bull is being pulled around by its tail and hit with sticks in order to prevent it from goring a 'runner'? Why are so many runners being gored by these bulls? Why are the bulls acting in such a way? Bulls don't attack people for no reason, they're doing so because they're afraid and are being defensive.

Where is the evidence that bulls are not treated with cruelty? Saying something doesn't simply make it so.

So pulling a bull to prevent him from goring a runner is a cruel activity?????? You´re putting the wellbeing of the animal before the killilng of a person???? So it´d be better to let the bull kill the runner instead of doing whatever to avoid this killing??? You don´t understand, simply don´t understand, and this extreme animalistic point of view can´t be accepted by my very human mind. I´m sorry, but I can´t continue with this conversation with you, we are at a different level.

Yes, it's called Darwinism. If you want to put yourself in the way of a scared and tormented bull for a bit of a thrill then you're an idiot. I note that you haven't responded to my question regarding why the bulls are attacking runners in the first place, I'm pretty sure I know the reason why. Animals don't attack for no reason, they do so either for predatory reasons (bulls are herbivores so it rules that one out) or in defence. Now what sort of person deliberately puts an animal in a position of defence? And then what sort of person, knowing the capability of such an animal, willingly puts themselves, and others, at risk of serious harm or death? I have more compassion for the bull who has no choice in the matter than any of the idiots and barbarians involved in this sickening spectacle. Why is a human life automatically more precious than that of another animal?

It's not an extreme "animalistic" point of view, it's simply called compassion. If you cannot understand this then I'm afraid I don't genuinely believe in your claim that you disagree with bullfighting. What's the difference? Where do you draw the line? At what point does torment and cruelty become unacceptable to you?